Mafia 225: Warehouse 13

[CrossFire]

wowyou'restubborn

So yeah Whitehead punched him. But who decided not to go to the hospital? Him. Who decided to do the stunt? Him.

Who died? Him.

[Gavin]

Ok. My debater's nature can't let me stay away from this argument.

Technically (in every sense of the word), Demo is correct. Whitehead pulled the trigger, it's his technical fault Houdini died. Nothing changes that fact.

Now, let's talk about the actual argument here, and that's "who's fault is it?" I wholly believe it was Houdini's fault. It was his idea, his choice, and his ego that led to his death.

I hand Crossfire a presumably unloaded gun in front of 100 people. I tell her to playfully shoot me. It's not unloaded, and I get killed. Crossfire killed me, however, 99 people in the audience would agree that it was my fault, not hers.

Demo wins the technical argument. Crossfire wins the fault argument.

[JusticeGuy]

So you're saying that the consequences are what judge this, not the action itself or the intent.

Whitehead's intent was not to kill Houdini. It was just to punch him as he was told.

And your example is extreme. And in that example, the intent of the gunman is to kill. Whitehead's intent was not to kill, as I said before.

Also, I'll give you an example based on something you said.

I can understand not getting my examples, but I feel like you guys are kinda just ignoring or looking over my entire point. Move past the fact that he wanted to do his stunts. Look at what actually killed him, not the events that led to his death.

So, let's consider another example. A young man is about to commit suicide. He doesn't want to pull the trigger. He doesn't want to hang himself. Instead, he's going to jump in front of a car. And he succeeds in his attempt. Is the driver at fault, or is the young man? According to you, it would be the driver, because it is the car, and ultimately the driver, that killed the young boy. The events that led to his death would be irrelevant. But, if that boy had left a suicide note, then the driver wouldn't be charged with murder or manslaughter, because it would be apparent that he couldn't have done anything about it.

So, you see, in my opinion, it is the INTENT that matters. And, since his intent was not to kill Houdini, and Houdini's intent was to prove to his fans that he could not be harmed, even amidst being as sick as he was, Whitehead is not responsible for Houdini's death. And since there are only two people involved in this, the blame must be on Houdini, because he knew of his illness and did the stunt regardless.

In closing, I don't think this is really worth arguing anymore, because, being who we are, none of us will budge on this. It is all based on opinion.

[DemoDawg]

wowyou'restubborn

Thanks

So yeah Whitehead punched him.

Which ended up killing him with peritonitis and a ruptured appendix.

But who decided not to go to the hospital? Him.

For his appendicitis. Which didn't kill him.

Who decided to do the stunt? Him.

Doesn't matter if he decided to do the stunt or if Whitehead wanted to do the stunt. Once again, the bottom line is that Whitehead gave him the blows that killed him. Houdini did not give himself peritonitis, did he? He did not cause the injuries which gave him peritonitis(basically same as previous sentence), did he? Sure he did not get treatment for his previous condition, which didn't kill him, but the peritonitis killed him. All because Whitehead delievered the final blows. You are almost trying to say Houdini committed suicide(Maybe not intentional, but still a suicide), which isn't tenable.
Let me ask you this. If you were the one that had to hit Houdini, would you blame yourself for the incident?

[IntoRapture]

Ugh. I don't like these kinds of debates, generally, but I'll make an exception this time.

Harry Houdini died of appendicitis. The blows he received to his stomach did not directly lead to his death--though they may have exacerbated the pre-existing condition. Yeah, the pain he endured from Whitehead's punches could very well have masked the pain he was feeling from his appendicitis, but that doesn't in any way make him responsible for Houdini dying. He died a natural death. Even if he had known he had appendicitis and sought medical attention before his appendix ruptured, the lack of readily available antibiotics means that there was no guarantee he would have survived. The fact that he didn't go to a hospital until long afterward just made his chances even slimmer.

It was a natural occurrence. No one should shoulder the responsibility.

[Gavin]

I'm going to put my foot down and agree with Into on this one.

[JusticeGuy]

Also, I had been arguing that without any knowledge of the incident in question, and I still say that Whitehead is not at fault. Houdini had had appendicitis for several days before the incident, and was refusing medical treatment. He only went to the hospital after passing out on stage in Detroit, and was more than likely taken there against his will. His death was an accidental one, according to the insurance company.

Also, since we don't know the date of the incident, we can't be certain how long he continued to refuse medical treatment before his arrival and death in Detroit.

[DemoDawg]

So, let's consider another example. A young man is about to commit suicide. He doesn't want to pull the trigger. He doesn't want to hang himself. Instead, he's going to jump in front of a car. And he succeeds in his attempt. Is the driver at fault, or is the young man?

I really don't want to debate anymore either but I have one last thing to say. I will agree that it is the young man's fault...HOWEVER, this is all completely circumstantial. The young is purposly trying to get himself killed and flings himself into a car.
At Fault-being the one who committed the act.
So in this circumstance, let us go back to the original question. Who was truely responsible for Houdini's Death and why? Was Houdini trying to kill himself? No, so your example is invalid. Did he allow Whitefield to injur him? Yes. So I'm not denying that Houdini was partly responsible, but Whitefield was truely responsible for the death of Houdini.
I'm done. No more debating me please. Elad, we beg you, stop this madness!

[JusticeGuy]

Elad is still at work and won't be back until after 11 EST. As I said before, this is truly based on opinion. If you think that it is intent that is more important or if you think that consequences are more important.

Regardless, Houdini is dead, and since it happened more than 80 years ago, I guess it really doesn't matter. *shrug*

[DemoDawg]

I guess it really doesn't matter. *shrug*

Amen.[ten characters]