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  1. #1 The Golden Compass debate 
    sure are a lotta penguins around here.... MorningStar Smiles's Avatar
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    This is an article my brother wrote on the debate that I found quite amusing and fair:

    The Golden Compass (aka, Retreading the Plot of EVERY JRPG EVER)

    Well, kiddos. It’s that time again; time for the Christians and Atheists to lock horns and battle like squalling infants fighting over a bucket in a sandbox. What’s it over this time? Evolution in schools? Gay Marriage? Nope! Something much more interesting; a movie!

    Now, you know me; I’m not a huge fan of completely retarded causes, and this strikes me as one. After all, it’s not like there’s world hunger, AIDS outbreaks, wars, and other fun stuff like that to worry about. We’d rather invest our time complaining about the adventures of a 12-year old girl who doesn’t exist and her friend, a freakin’ armor-clad polar bear.

    But, I digress.

    The thing I find most interesting about the debate around the movie The Golden Compass is that it’s being attacked by Atheists and Christians, both sides of which see the other side winning. The Atheists see the movies as removing all the wonderful messages that the books teach (such as how Christians are big bullies who just want to control you), and the Christians are complaining about why something so freakin’ sweet (I say again, armor-clad polar bear) has to be wrapped in a message that more or less ditches the concept of personal responsibility in favor of, well, ‘do whatever you want’ freedom. The two don’t go hand-in-hand, really. Oh, and it's aimed at kids, who are too dumb to make good decisions. No, really, they are.

    Actually, I should amend; the movie itself (apparently) is fairly innocuous. Hollywood has stripped out a lot of the religion in favor of making it appeal to a wider audience. The thing the Christians are worried about is that the movie will sell the books, whose pages have been written with the blood of Satan himself and will immediately strip the souls from anyone who casts their eyes upon them. Well, alright. Maybe that’s a bit of an overdramatic statement, but it is the basic idea.

    So, what do I think? You don’t really care, but I’ll tell you anyways!

    As a Sane Christian, I feel two things:

    Thing of the First is disappointment. Why? Again, I will point you to the polar bears covered in armor. I was looking forward to this film. A lot. It disappoints me that the movie has to have undertones aimed at little kids, who are already about as dumb as a box of hammers. Now, if this movie had a ‘God’s a Dick’ message and was aimed at adults, there wouldn’t be a problem. Why? Because adults generally don’t believe every single thing they hear. I’m happy to hear that the movies have toned-down the anitreligion, but at the same time, the end of the third book includes the main characters killing an opponent named God. [My amendment: in the book, the character is actually named Authority but is supposed to represent God. I assume they'll call the character the Authority in the movies too] No joke. How are you gonna tone that down? And thus, I am disappointed. As a Christian, it would be irresponsible for me to support a movie that openly attacks my faith without any sort of hope for debate over the points raised.

    The second thing I feel is exasperation. I’m so tired of Christian and Anti-Christian groups getting up in arms over everything. Harry Potter, How the Freakin' World was Created, Satanic Symbols on Toothpaste Tubes (Not joking; that was an issue in the 80s). As someone who doesn’t take the world all that seriously, I look at what they say about each other and cringe; seriously, guys. Why are you getting mad?

    Christians! You’re not supposed to get mad! You’re supposed to be loving and kind and exemplary so that people look at you and go, “hey, Christians are good people!” rather than, “Wow, that guy is a ranting, raving bucket of moron!”

    Atheists! Why are you getting made at people for believing in something? Sure, you might regard it as ignorant, but I’m sure you still tell your kids that Santa is real when they’re young. (For the record, my parents never did that… ironic!) Really, guys, you getting so mad at the concept of God and Christians is like me being incredibly angry with the Trix Bunny and the people who enjoy Trix cereal. I won’t get into the explanation, but I’m right, so don’t worry.

    On top of all of this, I’m forced to step back and study my own writing and methods of storytelling when I think about religion in books. Someone mentioned the Chronicles of Narnia ‘poisoning’ kids to the Christian values of honor and bravery and fighting evil ice-witches, and that got me to wondering. Sure, Narnia has a ton of that stuff. Azlan is a Christ character and gets resurrected after being sacrificed for people who have done wrong. You can’t possibly say that’s not a Christian influence unless your head is placed firmly up your trousers. But, Narnia—in all its Christian influence—is still a story about something else. Golden Compass, on the other hand, (and I must say I have yet to read it, so I am working off both sides of the rumor mill here) is a book that directly tells kids that God is a bossy, pushy, jerk and that killing him is probably best for everyone so we can all do whatever we want. And that’s just it; one is a fantasy story with undertones, another is a fantasy story with an agenda.

    So what of the Crossverse? My own stories are incredibly influenced by my faith. The Crossverse itself is based around Christian ideas (such as there being a heaven and a hell), and the continuing bridge between all the novels—Martin—is the avatar of God. For all intents and purposes, he’s God’s voice on the Material Plane (Though, he flat out says that unlike God, he’s fallible since he was once human). I feel—I hope—that the difference between my story and one that pushes an agenda is that I’m trying to say, “Look, this is what I believe, and since I created the story’s universe, this is how it will run. If you don’t believe that what I’m saying is the truth, just brand it as another fantasy element in a fantasy setting.” Hell, one of the biggest ongoing debates in Transgalacticon is a conversation between members of different species over the existence of God, and I plan on never really ending it on a definitive point, despite that my own opinion is “OF COURSE HE EXISTS, YOU SLACK-JAWED WORSHIPERS OF RANDOM CHANCE!”.

    Why? Because let’s face it; it doesn’t matter how much fussing and screaming you do, because we’re incapable of changing other people’s minds. Really, the only way people change is through their own choice, and the important thing is the debate, making sure to stand by your morals and ideas why actually trying to listen to the opposition. Of course, as a Christian, I’d love for everyone to be Christian. I think that would be pretty cool and solve a lot of problems. At the same time, this can’t happen, or at least, this won’t happen. And why? Because we live in a broken world. Even Atheists have to admit that; the presence of war, strife, hunger, and a Bratz Movie clearly indicates that there are things in this world that just keep it from being fixed. Mostly, those things are people and the things people create.

    Which brings me back to where I started; a movie like Golden Compass just ruins things for everyone. How can Christian parents take their kids to a movie that bashes the very ideas that they want their children to accept? How can artists like myself support an industry that favors box-office gross over the original artist’s message, ultimately regardless of what it is? Why can’t we get a movie with armor-clad polar bears that doesn’t have some sort of agenda?

    It’s sad, good readers, that we have to see things in these ways. Christians, don’t go see Golden Compass, or at least get more educated about it before you do. I’m not saying never see it; after all, doing what I just did and forming an opinion over a work that you’ve never experienced is generally moronic (though I’m still never gonna play Manhunt 2). Just don’t take your kids without knowing what they’re getting into. Don’t buy the books, and don’t give support to someone who has openly said that our kind is poisonous. Seriously. At the same time, when people talk about this movie; don’t get mad, and don’t rant. Just sit down and use it as an opportunity to prove our kind is a group of good, level-headed people who have a love for ALL mankind at the heart of their philosophy. Remember; mankind is fully of completely stupid people, so they just need more love. Follow what you teach; be nice, be loving, and if people insist of not seeing things they way you do, leave them to their fates. All we can do is talk.

    And you, Atheists. I’m sorry your agenda got sliced off of your movie, but you should be ashamed of yourself. If anyone from my team went over to your house and started telling your kids how terrible everything you tell them is, I think you’d be pretty upset. What? We do do that? Oh, uhm… well, I’m terribly sorry about that, and I’ll go have a talk with the Christians later about their overly-aggressive conversion tactics. But you’re making me lose my point! Atheists! So what if your movie is toned down? If it were too antichristian, it would tank so bad that the sequels would never be made. You should be happy! After all, at least we all get to see armored polar bears now. Besides, it’s not like any of this ultimately matters. If you believe there’s no heaven or hell, it really doesn’t make a difference if we do, right? I mean, we’re all just gonna end up dead and decaying in the ground. Now THAT cheery sentiment is what I wanna base my life around! Who’s with me?

    Oh, and what will I do with this movie, you’re wondering?

    Well, I’ll probably download the books and the movie, thus educating myself while sticking it to the proverbial man. I’m just cool like that. Like an armored polar bear.

    ---------

    Some further insight on the debate and my own thoughts:

    Here's the link to what the author has to say about the Golden Compass (His Dark Materials) debate: http://www.bridgetothestars.net/index.php?p=FAQ#12
    Read "Is the Authority supposed to be God?", "What does he believe?", and "Why did he portray religion as evil?"

    It seems that although the author hasn't abandoned the idea that there is a good God out there (though he seems to be highly against the possibility) his books represent the "bad God" that he thinks humans have created to oppress the world. I agree that many Christians have done a lot of unChristian things in the name of religion but those people (who do not even deserve to call themselves Christians) are not representative of God himself and it is just plain dumb for nonChristians to think so.

    I'm not going to go see the movie in theaters. I'll probably watch it later for free but I'm not going to spend money on something that disses what's most important to me. If someone was insulting what you believed, it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to not want to support it either.

    In regards to living day-to-day lives as Christians, many Christians are not helping their cause by acting like jerks to anyone who isn't Christian and if there hadn't been so many "Christians" in the world who did stupid evil things in the name of God, there wouldn't be this whole debate to begin with. So they should instead take this movie as motivation to be kind to people and show that true Christians are good people BECAUSE of a good and just God and chalk this movie up as a lesson learned (but not something they should just sit back and say is ok).

    Ok VAA! After making you read 2 bajillion characters worth of text, what are your opinions?
    Last edited by MorningStar Smiles; 12-01-2007 at 06:11 PM.


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  2. #2 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    Role me, Bitch! Chris Nagy's Avatar
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    In regards to the essay? I think your brother should concentrate on writing stories and not essays. Half or more of the content could have been replaced with a scrolling marquee that says "I am force-feeding you attempts at humor and sensationalism. Laugh."

    Additionally, the author falls into the same trap that he accuses Atheists of falling into. He makes excuses for Christianity (don't lump us in with those bad people claiming to be Christians) and then goes and does the same thing towards Atheists (I'm ashamed of you Atheists and your agenda.) If you want to call the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc, acts perpetrated by false Christians, you are arguing that their agenda was not in keeping with your agenda. Well, the so-called Atheist agenda referred to by the article's author is actually the agenda of the book's author and those who agree with him.

    Christianity tends to disown people in hindsight whereas many Atheists look at Militant Atheists (I don't know if that is an actual term, but it describes active promotion of the non-existence of God pretty well) as embarrassing cousins. With Christians, it's a case of "our current doctrine and outlook on the world makes these previous actions unChristian." Were the author of the article to live during the times and events that he regards as nonChristian, I have a hard time believing that he would have the same opinion, as he would be brought up believing that those he currently disowns were warriors of the faith, their actions promoted by the Vicar of Christ on Earth, so on and so forth. Even the Vatican makes a point to apologize about this stuff, albeit hundreds of years after the fact. I find it slightly disgraceful that Christianity disowns a past that enabled it to be the Christianity that it is today. I doubt today's Christianity would have survived the Moors.

    To put a little perspective on this, I am neither Christian nor Atheist. I'm Deist, which makes this whole debate very amusing to me because I think that both sides are being silly.
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  3. #3 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    sure are a lotta penguins around here.... MorningStar Smiles's Avatar
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    I can accept your first paragraph though, in his defense, I think he did it for the very reason of showing people how silly the debate is. I found it amusing, that's why I posted it, but that's an opinion that will vary from reader to reader I suppose.

    In regards to Christianity's survival, they survived the Romans (ex. the use of the Coliseum in the slaughter of many Christians), who's to say they woudn't have survived the Moors without the Crusades? Who knows, maybe another Constantine among the Muslims would have shown up after they took over. And yes, it's easy to say that without really knowing, but the same thing can be said of the Moor example. Who's to say? I'm also not so sure that every Christian at the time was in agreement even then with how the Crusades were handled.

    What I'm trying to get at though is that not all Christians are completely against the Crusades but they still agree that not everything done during them was right or good just because it ended up pushing Christianity over the Muslim faith at the time. There were both pros and cons present and people (both Christians and all other groups alike) make mistakes both then, now, and will continue to do so in the future. Just because one is a Christian doesn't mean that everything they do all the time is Christian, even if at the time they were taught it was, because we all mess up.

    That's also why there are so many denominations of Christianity and other religions today: because they're not all in agreement over what they believe no matter what era it is. Flaws will always be present because we're all just human. This is not just a "let's change our mind as we go when people get mad" sort of thing but an acceptance and acknowledgement of the mistakes of our "embarrassing cousins" and an attempt to improve and learn from them. This attempt of seperation is made because of those who try to lump something like that into the idea of religion as a whole and that it therefore must be evil. What Christians are trying to say is that both then and now people mess up, not God.
    Last edited by MorningStar Smiles; 12-02-2007 at 08:43 PM.


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  4. #4 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    Stay Classy... Aramek's Avatar
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    You know, after reading the whole thing. You make me really, really want to see the movie.

    Why?

    ARMOUR CLAD POLAR BEARS!!!

    That sounds so badass. Seriously, even if the movie sucks, the awesome CG armoured bear cavalry will make it cool. But, now I haven;t seen it yet, is the movie about Xmas? I mean, I'm an evil Fascist Athiest but I didn't really see anything Xmassy in the trailers at all.









    ........then again...

    I did see the Narnia movie, (I read all the books as a kid), and to this day, I still can't see anything Christian in it. Even though Lewis said it was about Jesus, I really just don't see it.
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  5. #5 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    I'd like to say something. Just today, actually, I learned of all the hub-ub about The Golden Compass movie. Then I come here and there is already a topic about it (Would you look at that =P). But before I really begin, I'm going to begin by saying that I am a Chrisitan and I have absolutely no doubts in what I believe in. I'm rather reserved and I am saddened by the image that Christians are given (which we caused-yeah, I'll own up to that). But I do not like downing on people. It says in the bible that that is wrong. But I speak from aside from the facts listed in the link below, I speak from what I believe and what God has told me. And this is mainly a message for Christians who are offended by the movie, but he's what God gave me so what the hey let's get typing!

    So... HERE WE GO!

    This was the message sent to me today:

    THIS IS SERIOUS! PLEASE READ! HELP US STOP CHILDREN ROM THINKING THIS!

    HELP US STOP THE MOVIE ABOUT KILLING GOD!!!! THE GOLDEN COMPASS, a new movie targeted at children, will be released December 7, 2007. This movie is based on the first book of a trilogy by atheist Philip Pullman. In the final book a boy and girl kill God so they can do as they please. Pullman left little doubt about his intentions when he said in a 2003 interview that "MY BOOKS ARE ABOUT KILLING GOD."
    The movie is a watered down version of the first book and is designed to be very attractive in the hope that unsuspecting parents will take their children to see the movie and that the children will want the books for Christmas.
    The movie has a well known cast, including Nicole Kidman, Kevin Bacon,
    and Sam Elliott. It will probably be advertised extensively, so it is crucial that we get the word out to warn people to avoid this movie.

    IF YOU IN ANY WAY BELIEVE IN GOD...PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW! THIS IS SERIOUS. IF YOU CAN TAKE THE TIME TO FILL OUT SURVEYS AND EVERYTHING ELSE THEN YOU HAVE THE TIME TO PASS THIS ON!!! DO WE REALLY WANT CHILDREN TO BELIEVE THAT IT'S OK TO TRY TO KILL GOD??? also on all of his interviews the autor said "I made this movie so kids would hate christians and god!!"


    I busted out into laughter. Even though the spelling is indeed horrible. The message made me laugh. I thought to myself "It's another DaVinci Code." So after I calmed myself down, I went to look if this information was true.
    I came to find out that it was and I had to endure another fit of laughter. People are trying to boycott the movie and whatnot and it is absolutely silly. As a Christian, yes, this isn't right. Should we stand for it? No. Should we boycott the movie? Absolutely not.

    Huh? (As some of you might be thinking) Is this girl off her rocker? Possibly, but hear me out. So let me give a brief background of what I've been doing the past few months, because for those who do believe in God, it'll make a whole bit of difference. I've been waiting. Sitting. "Doing nothing", as Daniel did for three years before he was promoted to higher power, as David did for about ten years after he was anointed as king and before he fouht Goliath. I've been sitting, I haven't been doing anything extra in church, I've just been sitting and spending time with God for over four months (Compared to Daniel's three years and David's ten, that's a short wee bit of time). So I've been learning to keenly listen to God, and what I'm about to type next comes straight from him.

    So, the movie, straight from the author's mouth, it's about killing God and is meant to steer people (mainly children) away from God. Again, is it unacceptable? Definately. Should something be done about it? Yes. Should we boycott and make a fuss about it? Definately not.

    Again, -as you might be thinking- huh??

    So what, it's about killing God, I mean, not that it makes it okay, but are we [Christians] really not firm enough in our faith to understand that it is fake. To know that it can never happen. I can understand that parents want to keep their kids from it and stuff, but what an awesome learning experince to teach younglings that God is above that. It is the perfect opportunity to teach about spiritual warfare.

    All this is, is spiritual warfare. It's an attack by satan and it's through the media (like we haven't seen that before). Really, it looks like a thorough movie. My sister wants to watch it with me, and I agreed before I knew about the whole she-bang with killing God and whatnot. But instead of telling everyone to boycott it, I see it as an amazing opportunity to teach people how Satan attacks and what and who he is targeting.

    What is he targeting? It's a no brainer. He's targeting the relationship between christians and everyone else (Again, like we haven't seen that before). People who are riding the fence, and athiests are already upset with us [Christians]. Chrisitans, collectively, make a big fuss and are quick to boycott something or whatever. I mean yes, it is good to be assertive and there are times to shout from the rooftops about what's not right. But definatly this is not the time for that, and that's exactly what Satan wants us to do. When we make an uproar, people get angry at us. People turn away from us. I feel from God that this isn't what we are supposed to do this time.

    Personally for me, ever since around this time last year, I've been facing a lot of spiritual warfare going on. It's the same thing, and one thing that I've learned is that you can't counter spiritual warfare attacks with counter attacks that are done in the flesh. Causing an uproar in the comminuty and trying to fight the media is fighting in the flesh. But to fight in the spirit, we need to use this movie as a teaching tool.

    A teaching tool? What?

    Yes, I said teaching tool. How real would it be to a kid, to see this movie, portraying God as evil, and then being able to compare it to the real God's love? How useful a tool would this movie be to explain how satan attacks? How useful a tool would this movie be to explain how spiritual warfare comes into our lives? The answer to all three of those is very.

    Next, who is satan attacking? Satan is attacking teens and kids and people riding the fence. I think that we need to learn how to fight back in the spirit (It is spiritual warfare afterall). Firstly, by praying, there is nothing that God doesn't hear, and there is nothing that God can't do. Pray for the people seing the movie and that they will be given wisdom and discernment. Prayer is the key in all of this. Which leads to number two, which is more important than number one, praising God. Even though this movie was meant for evil, God can and will overcome and come out on top. Number three, which should come after number one, is teaching each other and re-enforcing each other in our own faith. Would there be such an uproar if we were firmer in our faith in God? Most likely, not.

    Lastly, we need to pray for the person who wrote the books and for the people who are producing the movie. Pray for the actors in the movie. Pray for the people who had any part in the movie that their faith, will flourish in God's time. But most of all, pray for the author. He admitted that he doesn't believe in God and he wants to steer people away from beleiving in God. Okay, he admits it, but remember C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis was an amazing man and one of the most well known christians of our time, but C.S. Lewis began the same way that the author of this book did. C.S. Lewis hated christians and hated God. C.S. Lewis' life purpose was to prove that God didn't exist, and in his studies, from absolutely not being able to prove that God didn't exist, saw the beauty and glory of God and became a believer. I believe with all my heart, that the same thing is going to happen to this writer, I really do.


    So all in all. Teach, don't boycott. Retaliate Satan's attacks in the spirit, not the flesh. Then steps one through three.

    1. Pray for the people targeted by the movie
    2. Praise God for all that he is going to do. (Most important)
    3. Pray for the writer, because God's about to send him on a bumpy ride.

    Sorry if this was lengthy or arrogant sounding, or if you just don't believe in God, but this is truely from God.

    Last edited by Rad_Edward; 12-06-2007 at 11:12 PM.
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  6. #6 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    The Girl With Wings Sarah S's Avatar
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    It's nice to see I'm not the only one with a point of view like this. =) For example my mother is against Harry Potter as she thinks it has the potential/a possibility to cause to kids to try witchcraft. I understand her point of view, but I wanted to see for myself.


    Andd....Bleach is on and I'll finish this later. XD My ADHD strikes again!

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  7. #7 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    [~*I believe in love, two hearts. . .*~] SuKi's Avatar
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    Ugh. Okay. Second time writing this post. So I'm mostly paraphrasing.

    This is more or less what a slew of obnoxiously yellow flyers posted all over my school said last week:

    BE ALERT!
    The author of The Golden Compass, in a recent British interview, has disclosed that his mission in writing these books has been to "kill God in the hearts of children."

    It then went on to give some sort of quote from the book, something like "Satan is running rampant!" and then a quote from the actual British tabloid of the author stating that he wanted children to wake up and see there's no God. And then it said that we had a right as Christians not to support it. AKA: "Don't go, or you'll burn in hell. kthanksbye."

    These posters, apparently posted by the school's Catholic League, caused mayhem in my school. People were furious that they would even try to pull something like that. And, if we're looking past the fact that the books are against Christian belief, what it really gets down to is, they're telling us what to do. And if you tell us not to do something, then we'll sure as hell do it. En masse. In our uniforms.

    It's the same thing going with these Atheist and Christian groups. Everyone's telling each other what to do and what not to do, and people are getting all riled up about it. Leave each other alone and get on with your life, for God's sake. Agree to disagree. Make nice. Because in the end, it's a movie, guys. There are plenty anti-God movies all over the place. Why start calling them out now?

    Don't wanna see the movie? Fine. Don't see it. I couldn't care.

    And, quite honestly, if you really think that because this author had these kind of intentions that he'll automatically be successful, you're off it. I hardly believe that a book with only minor popularity has the potential to change the world view of an entire child population, much less one that's more focused on said polar bear. (Which, I gotta tell you, sounds kinda awesome.) And, frankly, if it is enough, then the Christians got some foundation kinks to work out. We should take a look at those. Harry'll wait.

    are you ready for d o m i n a n c e ?
    Episode one, bitches!
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  8. #8 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    Stay Classy... Aramek's Avatar
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    Personally, killing God in the hearts of children is not enough for me.

    I want to kill God, and steal his divinity.

    Somehow...I don't think seeing this movie will help me any in my endeavour.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Edit: My roomie and his friends went to see it last night, and said he was surprised by how good it was. He didn't see any religious message in it either, and said that it was visually stunning, wholesomely exciting, and intellectually interesting.

    Actually that's a lie, I'm dressing up what he said. It was good though.
    Last edited by Aramek; 12-09-2007 at 07:27 PM.
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  9. #9 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    Err.... Much of this argument (your brother's) is based on second-hand evidence. Comparing Narnia to Compass when he has (admittedly) never even read the Compass book or watched the Compass movie makes for an invalid argument. That's a debate no-no. :>

    What I find really silly is how offended he sounds when he talks about Compass--his statements make it seem like Compass is infringing upon, or violating, Christian families' right to take their children to see movies; fantasy movies, in particular.

    Nobody is forcing parents to make their children watch the film. This is like saying "Basic Instinct just ruins things for everyone. How can Christian parents take their kids to a movie full of boobies and men being murdered with ice-picks?" Just don't take your children to see the movie. o_O

    I think people are hastily making the books/movie into an evil, Christian-bashing, God-hating entity, when they haven't even read the trilogy or watched the movie. You know, everyone has the right to write a story from their own perspective.

    I am atheist (heh), but if a story is good, even if it comes from a Christian perspective (which, a lot do), or a Buddhist perspective, or even a hokie Scientologist perspective, then I'll enjoy it as long as the message it delivers is something I can relate to. Just because people don't agree about everything doesn't mean they can't agree on some things.

    Lalala. lol squid.
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  10. #10 Re: The Golden Compass debate 
    I'm a Christian and I've read the books. I loved them. I read them first when I was in Jr. High. At first when I noticed some of the 'anti-christian' material I was sort of offended, but I looked up an interview that Pullman did and he said he had no agenda in writing the books. He wrote them to tell a story and entertain. He might be lying, who knows, but I'll trust him until he give me reason to not.
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