Has anyone else been watching the news (not FOX news)? [Archive]

SexyLexy

09-02-2005, 08:16 PM

It's an uphill battle to cheer myself up by coming here and browsing the forum. If it's possible to be in shock, full of fatalistic conclusions, and yet livid beyond belief all at the same time, I'd say that would be an accurate description of how I'm feeling right now.

People giving away their infants to strangers, women giving birth on the sidewalk and the newborns dying. nurses injecting themselves with IV solutions to keep their strength up because they don't have any food or water and have to ignore people near death, cart the dead to stairwells, hand-pump breathing bags and endure overflowing bathrooms, people living without food and water for four days in feces and garbage, roving gangs shooting at innocent civilians and medical crews, gang-rapes and looting, rotting corpses in the street, families drowning in their attics as their pets tangled themselves in power lines and electrocuted themselves, entire communities gone, fire-ants floating on gasoline and oil spills, reporters breaking down in complete heartache, stranded on police rooftops until the troops find them...

All the while, the FEMA director is congratulating himself on 'how well and efficiently' everything is going, claiming that he had no idea there were 30,000 people at the Convention Center, dying in cesspools of utter despair and their own waste.

Yes, there are many looters and gangs in the city. Yes, some people chose not to evacuate--but most of them had nowhere else to go or not enough transportation to find shelter. Most of them are poor, and almost all of them are black.

Normally I hate the 24-hour news networks for broadcasting meaningless garbage. They have their work cut out for them now: spreading the truth to the world about how much we really care about our poor.

You can bet that if this was Westchester, the Hamptons, Greenwich or Manhattan, the doors of the White House would be beaten down by now. The worst part is that most of the National Guard deployed in Iraq makes up a good portion of public service jobs in local communities, like firefighters and police.

I feel compelled to keep watching, day and night, because the volunteer sessions aren't until next week, and I owe it to them to, at the very least, be their witness. It's worse than 9-11, and I can't ever forget the looks on those faces. They're going to haunt me until the day I die.

I have never been more ashamed of our country than I am right now. This is not my America. This isn't happening here. This CAN'T happen here.

Maybe if I say it long enough, I can convince even myself.

Matt Cruea

09-02-2005, 08:19 PM

How dare anyone try to place any blame on anyone else. FEMA, the citizens of New Orleans, the President, ANYONE. It's shameful.

This is no one's fault.

SexyLexy

09-02-2005, 09:25 PM

The hurricane is no one's fault. The RESPONSE is a national embarrassment.

Turning people away from the Superdome to the Convention Center and then claiming they didn't know there were people there? Turning Canadian tourists around at gunpoint for trying to evacuate on buses? Saying that everything is 'ongoing' when it's stalled and 'hard work' when its disorganized? THAT's shameful.

What if this were a terrorist attack?

The rescue workers are doing their jobs. It's their bosses, and the plans that we should have had in place for ANY disaster, natural or otherwise, that need explanation.

If it were Clinton's administration, wouldn't you be asking the same questions? I know I would. It's beyond despicable that they could AIRDROP a sigle loaf of bread or bottle of water without the necessary paperwork. If they were there, standing by as they claim, why didn't that happen? Airdrops are far less risky than ground support, and there was one airdrop caught on camera at the convention center and then AFTERWARDS FEMA's director said they had NO CLUE people were there. It makes me sick.

topleka

09-02-2005, 09:36 PM

This is not your America? Then move. Move to Israel where no one knows who owns what anymore. Move to the Philippines where they're trying to impeach the president on the basis that she accidentally called someone on the phone a few hours too early. Move to Antarctica and start your own perfect government. If you succeed, I'll defintely move in.

My father is the budget advisor for Washington state. You know, waaay on the other side of the country. And yet he's been spending the last days stressed and working overtime to allocate funds to send help to New Orleans. He's had to tell public schools they won't be getting that budget raise for the library anymore. He has to inform people searching for jobs that they'll have to wait longer. Why? Because the government ::gasp:: is doing what it can to help. And guess what. If kids from the schools come out "dumb" because they don't have enough reading material, or people's families are starving because they don't have jobs...guess who gets blamed? That's right: Katrina. Oh wait, no...the government. Haha. Surprisingly enough, the government isn't a magic genie that can do everything and fix things immediately. Is the situation terrible? Yes. Am I grieving for the tragedy that is occuring? Yes. How can I not? But believe it or not, people actually are doing their best to help, no matter how little it seems to the viewing public.

Sorry if I seem rather steamed up by this. There's a reason I try not to venture into the serious section. But considering what I've seen the past few days, I'm less than happy to know that people think the "government" isn't doing the best it can.

Chris Nagy

09-02-2005, 09:37 PM

The response seems hardly that different from any other emergency response in any other large bureaucracy; i.e. horribly inefficient, rife with confusion, full of mistakes. How often does an entire US city get destroyed? This isn't exactly something you can practice. One thing you have you understand about chain of command: it exists to keep people from taking initiative and making huge mistakes based on emotional reasons. The side-effect is that sometimes when something should be done, it isn't. No one is perfect.

If I wanted to take a jab at the presidency, I'd mention how Bush cut flood funding to Lousianna by 44% to help fund the war in Iraq, but this situation is no one's fault. Good and bad will be determined by historians. Death in this instance, and gruesome death, was inevitable. If it hadn't been televised, if you hadn't gotten to see the images, the deaths would have had a much harder time affecting you or anyone else.

Matt Alan

09-02-2005, 10:04 PM

Try taking this knowing you have family down there and you have no idea how the hell they are. Dead? Alive? Escaped to Texas?

I have no idea.

Try living with that and watching the news 24/7. It paints a drastically different picture.

Henageshi

09-02-2005, 10:10 PM

SexyLexy

09-02-2005, 10:14 PM

What if I don't want to? I was born here, too. The premise here: people don't abandon their country when it needs help, they do something. In many cases, the only thing left to do is rattle some freaking cages until people wake up. When I don't like something, I work to change it. Did I tell Conservatives and Southern Baptists to get out of the country during the nineties? No. Give me a break. (As for Israel, perhaps we should pour cement over the entire region, ala A Modest Proposal terms.)

Read my second post again. I don't expect perfection. I'm very well aware that there are thousands of people out there working 24 hours a day with no food, water or rest to save others, and I am frustrated that I can't be there with them until two weeks from now or longer. Unfortunately, we've had FOUR YEARS to prepare for something this big. billions and billions of dollars have poured into the creation of the DHS and individual states to ensure that adequate emergency facilities were available in major port cities. We should have had troops mobilized on Saturday, not Tuesday, because being safe is better than being sorry.

It is a gross mismanagement of our funds and troops that has cost dozens--if not hundreds--more lives because of a lack of organization within a department that was built SPECIFICALLY to solve that problem, so forgive me if I disagree with you as vehemently as I possibly can.

The main problem here is an ideology of reaction and not prevention. After September 11th, Americans were quick to lambast anyone, including each other, who openly questioned the President's motives and movements, calling them insensitive and unpatriotic. Those who questioned authority turned out to be correct; our intelligence priorites remained fixed in a Cold-War Era-mindset, and various agencies ignored the many warning signs slapped in their faces.

I know about that--the budget cuts. In all fairness, while it was wrong and hardly surprising, the levee work would most likely not have been finished in time. That's why I didn't mention it--if I had just simply blurted out some emotive cry like "Bush could have prevented all of this!" it wouldn't have been a valid argument. Instead, the press corps, who believe it or not, are only human as much as the next person and can't videotape what they don't see, are making my argument for me.

However, at least Bush could have claimed that he had made environmental precautions one of his bipartisan priorities had he not cut those funds to SELA. But Thank God for CNN, huh? Otherwise, we'd never know why gas prices had suddenly hit the roof! ...Hmmm.

SexyLexy

09-02-2005, 10:22 PM

It's awful about the hurricane disaster.

But it's like Matt Cruea said. It's stupid to blame it on anybody. I'm so tired of people saying "Where was President Bush during this hurricane?". WHAT DOES IT MATTER? He couldn't have stopped it no matter where he was.

Just so retarded.

Well! It's hard to argue with that, considering no one is asking that question.

My main beef is with the DHS officials. Of course, most of them got their jobs with Bush's full approval, so I suppose that does throw a whiff of bad judgement his way.

You know what I'm sick of? The press conferences that say everything is just peachy when it's clearly HELL ON EARTH down there. It's a hell of a lot easier to accept mistakes when leaders acknowledge that there ARE mistakes in the first place.

But hey, if they had realized that a bit earlier, there wouldn't be this huge divide between Americans today. We can hardly expect them to be so level-headed now.

Saren

09-02-2005, 10:27 PM

This is not your America? Then move.

Oh, that's a practical solution.

As far as I know, dissent is still legal.

-----------

The government doesn't need to be a "magic genie" to listen to predictions (http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313) and work out at least an evacuation plan that would not leave people without cars stranded (and not cut funding to the levees, as CNagy mentioned):

"For years, forecasters have warned of the nightmare flooding a big storm could bring to New Orleans, a bowl-shaped city bounded by the half-mile-wide Mississippi River and massive Lake Pontchartrain.
...
As much as 10 feet below sea level in spots, the city is as the mercy of a network of levees, canals and pumps to keep dry.
...
Scientists predicted Katrina could easily overtake that levee system, swamping the city under a 30-feet cesspool of toxic chemicals, human waste and even coffins that could leave more than 1 million people homeless."

Good and bad may be determined by historians, but I hope people remember this, and learn from it, in the near future. Why did this happen? What went wrong? What could we do differently next time? (As cliche as those questions are, they're important.)
Next time this happens (and there WILL be a next time, global warming was a main factor in the severity of this hurricane and that won't be reversed or stopped anytime soon), I hope we don't have to hear any more "No one could have predicted this!" bullshit.

I could go on, but SexyLexy's saying things more coherently than I can right now.

You know what I'm sick of? The press conferences that say everything is just peachy when it's clearly HELL ON EARTH down there. It's a hell of a lot easier to accept mistakes when leaders acknowledge that there ARE mistakes in the first place.

That's one of the things which frustrates me the most - and my frustration is nothing compared to those who are actually experiencing it. They keep saying "Busses are coming, food is coming, supplies are coming", so where are those things? It's been 4 days, and no end in sight.

Tom

09-02-2005, 10:49 PM

I prefer to observe threads like these, rather than participate, simply because I'm not quick enough to get tangled in the debate--plus my boyfriend has been watching CNN coverage of this disaster nonstop since the hurricane hit, so I'm far too emotional over this topic to be able to behave civily and objectively. But I just want to say that I agree heavily with SexyLexy and Saren--but also agree with what Matt Cruea and Chris Nagy have said.

Anyway, I'll be watching.

SexyLexy

09-02-2005, 10:57 PM

Thank you. (Both of you).

To his credit, Bush, unlike Michael Brown (FEMA Direcor, I think that's his name, anyway), has said today that the relief effort speed is "unacceptable." His words, not mine.

What's even more frightening is that if there was a terrorist attack, anywhere in the U.S, it would be ten times worse. It IS unacceptable, and it makes me very, very afraid for all of us.

The bottom line? There is too much paperwork. Too much red tape. Too many communications required between the cry for help and the storage facilities and transportation. Whose fault that is will ultimately be for history to decide.

But in the meantime, ABC will continue to show foreign diplomats and middle-class white people in hotels with ther own tickets off the Titanic, with the rest left to wait in a purgatory of unimaginable chaos.

BTW, I have friends in New Orleans, too.

Tom

09-02-2005, 11:05 PM

What's even more frightening is that if there was a terrorist attack, anywhere in the U.S, it would be ten times worse. It IS unacceptable, and it makes me very, very afraid for all of us.

My boyfriend actually mentioned something about that earlier. He said "if the terrorists were ever to pick a good time to attack us, now would be it."

Scary, indeed.

Chris Nagy

09-02-2005, 11:06 PM

The premise here: people don't abandon their country when it needs help, they do something. In many cases, the only thing left to do is rattle some freaking cages until people wake up. When I don't like something, I work to change it. Did I tell Conservatives and Southern Baptists to get out of the country during the nineties? No. Give me a break. (As for Israel, perhaps we should pour cement over the entire region, ala A Modest Proposal terms.)
Actually, this country pretty much gives you the right to abandom whomever the hell you want when times get bad. Eventually, you help through having to foot the bill thanks to increased taxes, but we are seperated enough that if I don't want to, I don't have to give a damn about Lousianna and I don't have to do anything. As sad as it is, I'm sure you'll find a great majority is far more interested in how much they have to pay for gas than the fact that people are living in some of the worst imaginable conditions. I guess I'm trying to say that a great generalization like people doing something when their country needs help is a nice flight of fancy, and I wish it were true, but it is not.

Unfortunately, we've had FOUR YEARS to prepare for something this big. billions and billions of dollars have poured into the creation of the DHS and individual states to ensure that adequate emergency facilities were available in major port cities. We should have had troops mobilized on Saturday, not Tuesday, because being safe is better than being sorry.
Hindsight and all that. Mobilizing the national guard is the state's responsibility, not the governments. Imposing martial law requires the mayor to ask for martial law, he cannot just declare it. Congress needs to act, give out orders, essentially before anyone does anything. Welcome to bureaucracy. Four days or one day, it doesn't mean a whole lot (edit: it doesn't mean a whole lot to the machine.)

It is a gross mismanagement of our funds and troops that has cost dozens--if not hundreds--more lives because of a lack of organization within a department that was built SPECIFICALLY to solve that problem, so forgive me if I disagree with you as vehemently as I possibly can.
Forgive me for saying that the loss of life as it might have differed in hundreds or thousands might matter to you, but it does not matter to the government. We as citizens are, if this is the right phrase, grist in the mill. Deaths are bad for business unless they can be spun to a political advantage, whether that number of deaths is 10, or 100, or 300, or 1000 is immaterial to those in charge.

Instead, the press corps, who believe it or not, are only human as much as the next person and can't videotape what they don't see, are making my argument for me.
What argument? That people are dying horribly? That they are living in horrible conditions? Was that even an argument? To my knowledge, no one has produced footage of an alternate reality where this situation has been handled better. The press corps is hardly the humanitarian force you make them out to be, or have you not heard about the stories of how they ignored the pleas of the living as they uncovered the dead to take some great shots?

It is easy to say something different should have been done, but you are reactionary just like everyone else. This didn't become an issue until it happened, after all, but all the data was there years ahead of time for anyone to see. How anyone could not assume a city below sea-level at the mouth of the 4th(?) largest river would not be at a huge risk is beyond me, but I've never heard any stories of the citizens in New Orleans complaining about the possibility of being completely wiped out, or the mayor or the governor voicing those concerns.

Yeah, I wish this hadn't happened. I wish this hadn't happened in the same way that I wish we hadn't gone to Iraq, in the same way that I wish that we hadn't ignored the warnings about September 11th, in the same way that I wish we hadn't let McCarthy turn the nation against one another over Red Fear, in the same way I wish that we hadn't placed Japanese Americans in internment camps and then seized their assets, in the same way I wish a bunch of fat old men hadn't crashed the economy and forced the poor to suffer for it, in the same way I wished we had not ever condoned slavery. But that is all hindsight talking, because at the time it was apparently logical enough to the majority or at least those in power.

My point in all of this is that if you want to direct your outrage, direct it to the Capitol. Direct it to the government. Don't bitch for the sake of bitching (pardon my french,) say it to someone who at least has some authority to make some suggestion somewhere on how this can be prevented in the future. When you use such a broad statement like "I am ashamed of America" you basically set yourself against all of us, you don't help the situation one bit, and you only create more of the dissent that you lament about here:

But hey, if they had realized that a bit earlier, there wouldn't be this huge divide between Americans today.

Dagita

09-03-2005, 12:07 AM

Actually, this country pretty much gives you the right to abandom whomever the hell you want when times get bad. Eventually, you help through having to foot the bill thanks to increased taxes, but we are seperated enough that if I don't want to, I don't have to give a damn about Lousianna and I don't have to do anything. As sad as it is, I'm sure you'll find a great majority is far more interested in how much they have to pay for gas than the fact that people are living in some of the worst imaginable conditions. I guess I'm trying to say that a great generalization like people doing something when their country needs help is a nice flight of fancy, and I wish it were true, but it is not.

Hindsight and all that. Mobilizing the national guard is the state's responsibility, not the governments. Imposing martial law requires the mayor to ask for martial law, he cannot just declare it. Congress needs to act, give out orders, essentially before anyone does anything. Welcome to bureaucracy. Four days or one day, it doesn't mean a whole lot (edit: it doesn't mean a whole lot to the machine.)

Forgive me for saying that the loss of life as it might have differed in hundreds or thousands might matter to you, but it does not matter to the government. We as citizens are, if this is the right phrase, grist in the mill. Deaths are bad for business unless they can be spun to a political advantage, whether that number of deaths is 10, or 100, or 300, or 1000 is immaterial to those in charge.

What argument? That people are dying horribly? That they are living in horrible conditions? Was that even an argument? To my knowledge, no one has produced footage of an alternate reality where this situation has been handled better. The press corps is hardly the humanitarian force you make them out to be, or have you not heard about the stories of how they ignored the pleas of the living as they uncovered the dead to take some great shots?

It is easy to say something different should have been done, but you are reactionary just like everyone else. This didn't become an issue until it happened, after all, but all the data was there years ahead of time for anyone to see. How anyone could not assume a city below sea-level at the mouth of the 4th(?) largest river would not be at a huge risk is beyond me, but I've never heard any stories of the citizens in New Orleans complaining about the possibility of being completely wiped out, or the mayor or the governor voicing those concerns.

Yeah, I wish this hadn't happened. I wish this hadn't happened in the same way that I wish we hadn't gone to Iraq, in the same way that I wish that we hadn't ignored the warnings about September 11th, in the same way that I wish we hadn't let McCarthy turn the nation against one another over Red Fear, in the same way I wish that we hadn't placed Japanese Americans in internment camps and then seized their assets, in the same way I wish a bunch of fat old men hadn't crashed the economy and forced the poor to suffer for it, in the same way I wished we had not ever condoned slavery. But that is all hindsight talking, because at the time it was apparently logical enough to the majority or at least those in power.

My point in all of this is that if you want to direct your outrage, direct it to the Capitol. Direct it to the government. Don't bitch for the sake of bitching (pardon my french,) say it to someone who at least has some authority to make some suggestion somewhere on how this can be prevented in the future. When you use such a broad statement like "I am ashamed of America" you basically set yourself against all of us, you don't help the situation one bit, and you only create more of the dissent that you lament about here:

I second this and his first post.. And the fact that you can't blame a single person for this unfortunate situation. It couldn't of even been prepared for at the time of notice. It's a terrible outcome but it's being taken care of.

"Sorry" from the suits won't cut it either. All you can do is move on. I do not feel pity for the single people down there, aspecially the men. But for families I feel a great grief. If it was just myself (a single male) in that situation I would start walking and get the hell out, screw your material belongings. For the families I can't feel a more depressing feeling.

Be resourceful and find some food. People have become to dependent on convenience. That sounds incredibly harsh but it's the simple truth. Waiting around for it is only prolonging a harder situation.

SexyLexy

09-03-2005, 12:11 AM

Actually, this country pretty much gives you the right to abandom whomever the hell you want when times get bad. Eventually, you help through having to foot the bill thanks to increased taxes, but we are seperated enough that if I don't want to, I don't have to give a damn about Lousianna and I don't have to do anything. As sad as it is, I'm sure you'll find a great majority is far more interested in how much they have to pay for gas than the fact that people are living in some of the worst imaginable conditions. I guess I'm trying to say that a great generalization like people doing something when their country needs help is a nice flight of fancy, and I wish it were true, but it is not.

You're correct. Perhaps I should have said that simply because we have a *right* to be apathetic doesn't mean that we ought to be. You make it sound like I'm being an optimist--and I'm not. I can't be both a critic and an optimist at the same time... or can I? *shifty-eyed dog look from Simpsons*

45 percent of this country thinks the government should curtail the rights of all Arab-Americans for the sake of security. As a realist, I acknowledge that. As a critic, I refuse to accept that as the final say in the matter. The same principle (loosely) applies in this case.

Imposing martial law requires the mayor to ask for martial law, he cannot just declare it.

True, but the National Guard is not acting under martial law, at least not according to FEMA. That would be the Army. There was a great section on CNN last night discussing the different kinds of troops who were allowed to do what, and I'd have to rewatch it to really get into this since one report is now running into another, but many National Guard units were already nearby in preparation for the hurricane. Certainly, the state holds much responsibility for this problem.

What argument? That people are dying horribly? That they are living in horrible conditions? Was that even an argument? To my knowledge, no one has produced footage of an alternate reality where this situation has been handled better.

On the contrary, I watched at least five different Washington talking heads go on record yesterday repeatedly saying that the relief effort was extraordinarily well-coordinated and efficient, that the scenes on tv were 'isolated incidents' or 'pockets' within an overall bright picture. In truth, the entire city is in anarchy, and the reason the press can't get there is because it's too dangerous. Yet MSNBC's nightly broadcast ended on an unrealistically positive note for some infathomable reason, saying that the crisis was mostly over.

I'm not making the press out to be saints, but I'll trust live feeds more than the hot air from Washington any day. In many boating incidents, they could not pick people up because of burst gas lines, debris and live power lines. They've been passing information to the authorities, broadcasting victim after victim just to list the names of their loved ones and recording houses with people in them so that rescuers know where to look. I hardly think that they should *not* tape victims simply because they can't reach them.

It is easy to say something different should have been done, but you are reactionary just like everyone else.

If there were something more to do besides sending unanswered letters to Congress asking why our funds are being so mismanaged in the DHS and arguing with everyone who simply trusted Ashcroft implicitly, believe me, I would have done it. I’m not an engineer.

This didn't become an issue until it happened, after all, but all the data was there years ahead of time for anyone to see. How anyone could not assume a city below sea-level at the mouth of the 4th(?) largest river would not be at a huge risk is beyond me, but I've never heard any stories of the citizens in New Orleans complaining about the possibility of being completely wiped out, or the mayor or the governor voicing those concerns.

Actually, the state and local officials have been urging Congress through its senators to pass more preventative measures and give funding to fight coastal deterioration. They were largely ignored.

But that is all hindsight talking, because at the time it was apparently logical enough to the majority or at least those in power.

Not to a lot of people. If we give up and stop trying to change people’s minds, we are condoning indifference and complacency. It is ignorance and selfishness that we must fight with words, because it works. You can call that emotional manipulation or whatever else you want, but now that I know, I cannot stand by in silence and say nothing.

Don't bitch for the sake of bitching (pardon my french,)

…isn’t that what this forum is FOR? This, to me, is an important issue, and imho, worth ruffling a few feathers to bring into consciousness.

say it to someone who at least has some authority to make some suggestion somewhere on how this can be prevented in the future.

I have. Do you really think they listen?

When you use such a broad statement like "I am ashamed of America" you basically set yourself against all of us, you don't help the situation one bit, and you only create more of the dissent that you lament about here

That’s the problem with your reaction. I don’t feel unpatriotic by saying that, nor am I blaming you or anyone reading this. America, in this instance, is the current government in power, not its people. I made that perfectly clear. I AM ashamed, as are many, many others (here I refrain from whipping out the latest poll numbers on such loaded questions).

I created discussion. That is what I wanted in the first place.

Matt Cruea

09-03-2005, 12:24 AM

You guys are all boring.

Saren

09-03-2005, 12:24 AM

If it was just myself (a single male) in that situation I would start walking and get the hell out, screw your material belongings. For the families I can't feel a more depressing feeling.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/throwingstardna/804496.html

The comments to that post cover pretty well why people don't just start walking out of there. One of the main reasons is that the National Guard is not allowing people in or out.

Matt Cruea

09-03-2005, 12:25 AM

You're correct. Perhaps I should have said that simply because we have a *right* to be apathetic doesn't mean that we ought to be. You make it sound like I'm being an optimist--and I'm not. I can't be both a critic and an optimist at the same time... or can I? *shifty-eyed dog look from Simpsons*

45 percent of this country thinks the government should curtail the rights of all Arab-Americans for the sake of security. As a realist, I acknowledge that. As a critic, I refuse to accept that as the final say in the matter. The same principle (loosely) applies in this case.

True, but the National Guard is not acting under martial law, at least not according to FEMA. That would be the Army. There was a great section on CNN last night discussing the different kinds of troops who were allowed to do what, and I'd have to rewatch it to really get into this since one report is now running into another, but many National Guard units were already nearby in preparation for the hurricane. Certainly, the state holds much responsibility for this problem.

On the contrary, I watched at least five different Washington talking heads go on record yesterday repeatedly saying that the relief effort was extraordinarily well-coordinated and efficient, that the scenes on tv were 'isolated incidents' or 'pockets' within an overall bright picture. In truth, the entire city is in anarchy, and the reason the press can't get there is because it's too dangerous. Yet MSNBC's nightly broadcast ended on an unrealistically positive note for some infathomable reason, saying that the crisis was mostly over.

I'm not making the press out to be saints, but I'll trust live feeds more than the hot air from Washington any day. In many boating incidents, they could not pick people up because of burst gas lines, debris and live power lines. They've been passing information to the authorities, broadcasting victim after victim just to list the names of their loved ones and recording houses with people in them so that rescuers know where to look. I hardly think that they should *not* tape victims simply because they can't reach them.

If there were something more to do besides sending unanswered letters to Congress asking why our funds are being so mismanaged in the DHS and arguing with everyone who simply trusted Ashcroft implicitly, believe me, I would have done it. I’m not an engineer.

Actually, the state and local officials have been urging Congress through its senators to pass more preventative measures and give funding to fight coastal deterioration. They were largely ignored.

Not to a lot of people. If we give up and stop trying to change people’s minds, we are condoning indifference and complacency. It is ignorance and selfishness that we must fight with words, because it works. You can call that emotional manipulation or whatever else you want, but now that I know, I cannot stand by in silence and say nothing.

…isn’t that what this forum is FOR? This, to me, is an important issue, and imho, worth ruffling a few feathers to bring into consciousness.

I have. Do you really think they listen?

That’s the problem with your reaction. I don’t feel unpatriotic by saying that, nor am I blaming you or anyone reading this. America, in this instance, is the current government in power, not its people. I made that perfectly clear. I AM ashamed, as are many, many others (here I refrain from whipping out the latest poll numbers on such loaded questions).

I created discussion. That is what I wanted in the first place.

Why is your font so small?! Are you running a whore factory!?

topleka

09-03-2005, 06:30 AM

By "then move" I didn't mean that you should run off to Canada. I meant that no matter how ashamed or angry you may be, people are doing their best, and hey, things could be worse, so think about where you are. Seems you want to move, though, as you're currently attempting to convince yourself that this isn't America...I'm glad to live in a place where I'm actualy allowed to disagree with the people in charge without fearing for my life. I'm glad we can have this discussion on an open board instead of whisper it in secret for fear of being cut down by the government. Because there are a lot of things about this country I don't like. But hey, I'm not moving either. Yet. ::shrug:: Kinda odd how only two sentences from my entire post were picked out by some people.

And hey, big wigs on TV saying "Yeah, we rock!" isn't something I enjoy seeing either. But the point I'm trying to make is that complaining isn't changing much. Sure, we're generating discussion, but what will come of that? Are these ones and zeroes in cyberspace helping those people at all? I'm sure a lot of your frustration comes from the fact that there's little either of us can do right now, but it hardly seems logical to take out said frustration on those who are doing something.

This government that was built by people has many faults. This is mostly because it was built by people, and hey, people are like that. Red tape, filework, and impersonal digits often get between the people in charge and those in need. But then again, how many times have we heard that the government shouldn't get too involved in our lives? How many times have we held "government" at an arm's distance because we don't want them to have the power to come right at us without going through the proper procedures and filling out the right forms?

I understand you're angry, and I'm trying very hard to understand the point of this thread. From what I understand (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're frustrated because the government is being inefficient and/or not doing enough. And if that's the case, I'm saying that it may not be much, but the government is made up of individuals who are doing their best right now, and if you have any suggestions or solutions, we'd gladly listen.

P.S.
Mad props to you for actually knowing A Modest Proposal. Seems people don't actually pay attention to history these days.

Dear Matt: Sorry we're boring. I don't usually like to debate, but seeing as I already got myself into this, it seems rather dumb to just leave.

Edit: This isn't one of those "I'm leaving and never coming back!" type posts, but unless someone seriously wants an answer from me, I'm probably not going to post anymore. Arguments like this in which both sides are basically saying the same thing tend to drive me a little nuts when my time could be better spent trying to find a way to help people who actually need it. So from now on, I'm lurking, because my anger sure isn't going to help anyone.

ig.

09-03-2005, 09:23 AM

Tom

09-04-2005, 12:18 AM

Regarding FOX News.. Some surprises (C&P'd from Crooks and Liars):

Shepard Smith and Geraldo Rivera were livid about the situation in NOLA as they appeared on H&C. When Hannity tried his usual spin job and said "let's get this in perspective," Smith chopped him off at the knees and started yelling at him saying, "This is perspective!" It was shocking.

Geraldo who I'm no fan of was crying, holding a little child up to demonstrate the extremely inhumane conditions these people are forced to live under. Forced is the right word because they are locked in the dome by our government and can't leave. Troops are guarding the bridge.

This goes beyond political lines and it's as sad a situation as I've seen. Let's see all the happy politicians slap themselves on their backs after viewing this segment.

"This was some amazing TV. Kudos to Shep Smith and Geraldo for not letting O'Reilly and Hannity spin their GOP "resolve" apologia bullshit. I'm fairly shocked...."

AMEN, to that last quote.

The video of Geraldo and Smith can be found here: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/02.html#a4763

Everyone should watch that video. I just.. no words.

ClymAngus

09-04-2005, 01:14 PM

I can say that I feel enjoyment at the notion that everyone seems so surprised at what is occuring. If nature wanted to bend me over personally, I'd sure as hell expect a blown O-ring within 36 hours' time.

It's a sad fact that nature doesn't care about humanity. 1000's dead or a nice sunny day it's just cause and effect. I'm not saying that this could have been averted but trying for no good reason to rebalancing the enviroment back to cretacous levels of co2 just may cause the weather systems to alter, a little bit. Can anyone spell ice-age?

Given the enviroment can cause a level of destruction that strikes dumb arguaby the most powerful country in the world. Maybe it might be an idea to start looking into long term solutions to energy needs? Sustainable ways of living? This will hurt, it will mean lifestyle related sacrifices for everyone. It's better than getting our asses and our economies womped more and more frequently by something a lot more powerful than us.

Matt Cruea

09-04-2005, 02:57 PM

Oh my GOD, are we going to get on the "Global Warming Caused Hurricane Katrina" topic, because that's the biggest load of shit EVER. In the history of loads of shits, and I should know because I wrote the book.

SexyLexy

09-04-2005, 03:09 PM

I don't think I've ever seen someone contradict themselves in less than three sentences before. I wish I had a medal.

IMO, it's only speculation (although the existence of global warming is very real). No one seems to be able to prove anything on hurricanes one way or another, since there are holes in the MIT study's research.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1099102,00.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1089002

Matt Cruea

09-04-2005, 03:22 PM

From - http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Landsea/deadly/index.html

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Landsea/deadly/Table4.htm Ranks the most powerful hurricanes from 1900-2000. Note the spread.

To quote someone summarising:

A hurricane of category 4 or stronger apparently hits the U.S. every 6 years.

The only years after1900 when a hurricane failed to strike the U.S. mainland were 1902, 1905, 1907, 1914, 1922, 1927, 1930, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1958, 1962, 1973, 1978, 1981, 1982, 1990 ,1994 and 2000.

The most hurricanes to strike in one year were six in 1916 and 1985. There were five in 1933, and four in 1906, 1909, and 1964. Three hurricanes struck the U.S. in one year a total of sixteen times. Ten of these sixteen times occurred during the sixteen years from 1944 to 1959!

Shouting out global warming when Hurricanes have been strong and regular for 100 years isn't going to convince people. And this is from someone who believes in global warming.

As much as they may seem evil, Hurricanes are a vital part of the Earth's atmosphere because they transfer energy between the equator and the poles (as do Typhoons in the East). While global warming may well have an effect on severity (this is unproven as far as I know), the main reason that Hurricane frequency increases and decreases is directly linked to the salt content of the water, when the salt content increases, the water becomes warmer and this makes the ingredients necessary for Hurricanes more likely, as the salt content of the Atlantic basin is currently increased, thus a more active Hurricane season will occur. Salt shifts in water are cyclical in nature, thus if events follow science expectations, once salt levels dissipate in the Atlantic, thus should Hurricane frequency lesson but that will take decades for the normal flow of the Earth's ocean currents to redistribute the salt concentrations around the globe. This is the reason for the ebb and flow in hurricane activity in the USA and by measuring and observing salt levels, this how it is possible to predict the upsurge in Hurricane activity.

Hurricane frequency is cyclical.

What will be vital is to see what happens after the current salt cycle is over, at the moment, the climate change is, as far as scientists can tell, completely normal. However, if water temperatures in the Atlantic basin do not drop once the ocean has redistributed the salt concentration naturally, then I think we will be looking at some other factor that is causing this and that may well be your global warming smoking gun. But at the moment, the reason people are playing down global warming is because this was gonna happen anyway as a course of nature, whether it has been excarberated by GW, I don't know, it is probably going to be impossible to tell for a few decades yet.

SexyLexy

09-04-2005, 03:35 PM

That was so beautiful...I'm going to go outside now before that tsunami from La Palma hits. Not wasting any more time. *dashes merrily*

Matt Cruea

09-04-2005, 03:37 PM

Going outside is nice.

But watch out! Them's racists in the gubment gonna getcha!

ig.

09-04-2005, 06:00 PM

Humble me, O Mother Nature. *pours motor oil on the ground, which will probably cause el Nino to get stronger or something*

Matt Alan

09-04-2005, 06:02 PM

A thread about the atrocities of the government in handling a natural disaster has became outpost for Mars Attacks and Global Warning issues.

Wow.

Two points.

Matt Cruea

09-04-2005, 06:09 PM

It's actually a thread about the hurricane in general, not just the government side of it.The global warming issue is actually a part of the discussion, and I guess you'd know that if you paid any attention to the news. The Mars Attacks! reference was in an entirely different and unrelated thread, so hey, again, pay attention.

However, it's nice to know that no matter how popular you become, Matt, you still have a tendency to be incredibly stupid, sometimes.

But we all love you, Matty! ^___^

Chris Nagy

09-04-2005, 08:24 PM

But you are still not invited.

ClymAngus

09-05-2005, 12:57 PM

You know something MC, I don't think I've ever seen someone so completely, utterly and comprehensively miss the point as well as you just have in this topic. You call Matt stupid but given the way you've conducted yourself I'd really love to know what your basis for comparison is.

I want you to sit, think, read back my original post then, with a calm and clear head answer.

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 01:25 PM

Seems we're missing the point all the way around the board, as the original topic was the government's response to the disaster. Clym, you brought up an excellent question about whether or not we should now attempt to live a sustainable lifestyle, but it is still a deviation from the original topic. Cruea also went on a tangent with his global warming, likely because he singled out the "altering the environment" part of your post and ran with it.

The reason Matt Alan gets railed on is not because he pointed out that we all went off-topic, but that one of his two examples is from another thread entirely. Mars Attacks was in the Chief Justice thread, not this one. The two threads aren't even similar enough to confuse, hence the mockery. Considering his post was a shot from the peanut gallery that didn't even contribute to the tangents being discussed (sustainable living, global warming) or even the original topic (government response to Katrina) I feel it is well justified.

ig.

09-05-2005, 01:27 PM

Besides - expecting a calm and clear-headed answer from Matt is like expecting to find gold inside a trout.

ClymAngus

09-05-2005, 01:48 PM

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 02:04 PM

Ah, I believe you misunderstand me. I was referring to the mockery that Matt Cruea leveled in the direction of Matt Alan.

Rasha

09-05-2005, 03:25 PM

My question is this (and a serious question at that. . .so no flames all you angry up-tight people). . .how could they have better prevented this disaster? I mean, you could no sooner prevent the damage a series of tornados ripping through Chicagoland and destroying everything in its path. Also, I've heard that the city of New Orleans is built below sea level and that when the French guy (uhh. . .name escapes me) built the city there, he was told numerous times that it wasn't a good idea in case there was a storm, the whole city would flood. Now I understand most of you are upset about the response to the disaster, but as someone mentioned before, you can't prepare or organize for a leveling of a major US city. And you know what, we've been tracking this hurricane for a while now. Sure, it didn't go on its "projected path", but come on - haven't you watched the weather for your area and it said it was going to be bright and sunny and it ended up being a thunderstorm?

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 03:51 PM

I'll play the devil's advocate here. To prevent the damage from the storm? There was very little that they could do. However, there had been promises to build concrete structures and use 3000lb sandbags to section off one of the major pumping stations that kept the city from going completely under, and those promises were never fulfilled. The pumping station went under water, it went offline, and water poured into the city, increasing the damage and the death toll.

Those who could not get out of New Orleans said that there was no public transportation provided to help them evacuate-- there should have been buses. School buses, greyhound buses, every bus that could get to New Orleans should have been there to help evacuate the citizens.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

SexyLexy

09-05-2005, 04:30 PM

Finally, something I feel I can respond to again and only raise *intellectual* hackles... XD

You make some good points, Rasha, as have several others. :) Since the beginning of my posting, I've realized that my primary beef is actually with a general disregard for scientific research that happens to be legitimately pessimistic. It just so happens, as fate would have it, that the current administration is more hostile to science than any administration prior to it (they all are to some extent--let's not forget the way Gore ignored the AIDS/pharmaceutical thing in S. Africa while he was VP--but the Bush Administration often likes to pretend that scientific conclusions are opinions, not facts, and that they can be shoved under the carpet if the results don't turn out in their favor. This is an undeniable fact, as documented by the Waxmann Congressional Report, though you certainly don't need to read 200 pages of omissions, biases and misrepresentations to see them pop up in the news every few days). If anyone wants, I can extrapolate further on that.

My original point was: we are supposed to have disaster relief procedures in place and operational by now. FEMA and the Red Cross just did yet another emergency preparedness test in Southwest PA (where I live) this spring, one of the few tangible results of all of those taxpayer dollars that funnelled into this giant government conglomerate called the 'Department of Homeland Security.' I don't know WHY the GOP is suddenly the Even Bigger Government party, but let's let that slide for now.

The DHS controls, among other agencies, FEMA, INS, the transportation authorities, etc--every major agency that would have control over movement and security in this country in a state of emergency. Because the Federal Emergency Management Agency controls all major U.S. operations during oh, let's say, another terrrorist attack like 9-11, Michael Brown, the director of FEMA, would control all of those various agencies that have little to no experience coordinating efforts, and Michael Chertoff, the Sec. of Homeland Security, would have control over him. They, in coordination with certain aspects of the military would have llocked down NYC during September 11th, treated the wounded and hunted down the clues necessary to draw conclusions.

The problem is that mountains of paperwork and protocol separate each department, and creating DHS seems to have exacerbated these setbacks instead of lessening them. To make matters worse, there are something like 15 different intelligence offices that would have had to come into play if Katrina had been a nuclear attack. Even with the CIA and FBI uninvolved, DHS has had four years and billions and billions of dollars set aside for it to handle just such a crisis. We've had almost four years to prepare for another catastrophe, and I think we're blessed another one hasn't come along sooner.

If we can't even clean up after Mother Nature, I don't want to think about what would happen if al-Qaeda got lucky just once.

Setting moral values aside, national security is the foundation of Bush's presidency. He appointed Chertoff and presumably appointed Michael Brown, at the behest of the former FEMA head, someone-Alpough? who worked on his first election campaign. Michael Brown's only experience at handling disasters is some volunteering time at a local ambulance corps or the equivalent, and his main job up until a couple of years ago was overseeing Arabian horse shows. He apparently resigned from that occupation under heavy pressure from his bosses because they thought he was distempered and stubborn enough to be called 'bull-headed.'

Naturally, none of that showed up on his online resume.

While it is inconceivable and appalling to think that there was no helicopter activity for most of the day in either Mississippi or Louisiana because Bush was tourning the areas (this equated to more people dying of heat exhaustion, dehydration, starvation and inadequate medical care), the worst problems were communications problems. I'll list a few examples below:

--Bus drivers refused to go into the city for much of the week because someone had spread rumors that it was 'a war zone' near the Superdome. In fact, the first gunfire near the Superdome was on Thursday, and it was directed at the crowd and one single incident. Furthermore, there were pre-mobilized National Guard units waiting down there before the buses arrived that could have escorted them, even in a limited fashion, but a lack of directives made this impossible.

--*The claim that FEMA didn't know that there were thousands of people waiting at the Convention Center until Thursday midday is either absolute bullshit or an unforgivable case of situational hearing loss.* A policeman drove through the Convention Center crowd and sped off when a reporter asked when the help would arrive (this was early in the week). Then, either on late Wednesday or early Thursday, a helicopter was about to land with aid near the CC but decided to air-drop a few bottles of water instead because the pilots feared the victims would try to swarm the plane. There were no further air drops attempted, despite the fact that about 30,000 people below, poor, exhausted, thirsty and starving, were waiting calmly ALL week, with no riots and only a lone few individuals so much as breaking a window in to get food or water. Thwy waited for help for five days, policing THEMSELVES, because they had been told by someone at the Superdome and the passing cop and helicopter that the government would save them. I know that I would have rioted long before then, had I been denied water and ignored while babies died around me from sepsis, dehydration and God knows what else.

--200 people at least were dropped off on a highway overpass in Chalmette after being airlifted out of the waters by the Coast Guard (who are in touch with FEMA and the Nat'l Guard). Half of them died waiting in the 90-degree heat for buses that never came. No one has even tried to claim that FEMA didn't know THEY were there.

--Private hospitals and hotels were evacuated first, usually in plain sight of neighboring public hospitals and the Superdome. All of the people in Tulane hospital, for example, who were picked up via helicopter were non-essential personnel (versus the people in Charity public, most of whom were critically ill patients who died waiting for helicopters and nurses keeping themselves alive by giving each other IVs). The hotel guests had food and water before they were evacuated. The public hospitals and civic centers had neither. All of this was captured on videotape.

--For whatever reason, the National Guard refused to let scores of people leave the city on foot via the highways. One reason for this, I suspect, was that their superiors had told them (or they decided on their own) that it was better for the homeless to remain and die rather than to swamp neighboring communities or perish on the highway.

There was an astute letter to the editor in today's Post-Gazette:

The race factor

While the waters were still rising in New Orleans, the recriminations began that race is playing a role in the slow response. I heard one New Orleans black leader proclaim on Thursday that the response by the federal government was poor because it involved aiding mostly blacks.

An important distinction must be made. The inadequate and chaotic rescue effort that is slowing taking shape is not the farce that it is because it involves the rescue of mainly blacks. It is instead a rescue mission ill-equipped to deal with the scope of the catastrophe because it took place in a city largely inhabited by poor blacks.

Disaster preparation decisions were made on a cost-benefit basis. Levees that could only sustain a Category 3 hurricane were built because that's only what the federal government felt the community they were protecting was worth. It would be hard to imagine that if New Orleans had the same demographics as Beverly Hills that the same decision would have been made.

Whether or not you think that a person who hires a person who commits criminal negligence in a crisis the likes of which are equal to Camille plus 9-11 times TEN is partly to blame or not is entirely up to you. However, given the amount of time that this country doesn't have in so many things, including terrorism, I know we could have done better. A lot better.

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 04:49 PM

I agree. With all of the above.

I have no idea what Clym is talking about.

Matt Alan

09-05-2005, 05:13 PM

....Okay, Cruea and CNagy were right, I mixed the Mars Attack from the other thread into to this one too. My bad.

And I probably am uptight for getting so annoyed with Matt Cruea's immaturity in this thread, but ya know what? I have several relatives in New Orleans that no one has heard any fucking thing from and for all I know I've lost several young cousins and an aunt and uncle. Yeah, I get upset when people talk so lightly about this ordeal. I find it utterly disrespectful and disgusting.

But if my relatives ARE dead, its no more the government's fault than Mother Nature's, its life...bad things happen.

Yes, I'm sorry that no matter how popular I become I still say the stupidest things or that I get annoyed at the "Youre' still not invited", because a few people couldn't understand that I couldn't use the Talk function in Iparty and I finally snapped at all the Iparty invites I got one night. Yes, if that still gives you shits and giggles, CNAgy, I'm happy.

But if you guys want to devote half a page to mocking me in a thread about the "worst natural disaster to ever hit the US", couldn't you have picked a better thread? You want to talk about stupidity, take a long hard look in the mirror some time.

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 05:30 PM

Man, as sympathetic as I am for your relatives and whatever you are going through, you opened yourself up to this entire thing. I feel absolutely no remorse for making fun of you when you bring it on yourself with some off-comment that has nothing to do with anything that is being discussed, at all. You pop up in a thread, say "wow, you guys are so off-topic" and cite the wrong thread; you didn't add a damn thing. Yeah, I get a nice chuckle every time I think about that IParty, which is again something that you brought on yourself with your "Will it be worth my time?" comment.

Take a good long moment to wonder if we'd even have brought you up in this thread if you hadn't come in and put your foot in your mouth. You've got no one to blame but yourself, because I don't like to sit around and watch someone make an ass of themselves, I call them on it.

Tom

09-05-2005, 05:36 PM

Come on, guys, let's take this disagreement off of the thread and on to somewhere private so Nikki doesn't lock it. It's a good thread that deserves to stay open. :)

Rasha

09-05-2005, 06:01 PM

Agreed, Tom. ^_-

Anyway, I have just one more comment. Someone mentioned that although they have relatives down there, "that's life". And you know what. . .as cold-hearted and inhumane as that sounds, I agree. For centuries, human beings have considered themselves "above nature". . .our species does not follow some basic principles that the natural world does. For example - survival of the fittest. Or in this case, fittest=richest. In our society, the rich survive and the poor do not - this is essentially no different than how nature goes about "natural selection" for every other species except for human beings who refuse to conform to live in harmony with everything else. In nature, the creatures without the proper resources die and are unable to continue their lineiage. . .same thing here. With people, the ones who had resources (money and/or power) were able to get themselves to safety. So in essence, the "weak" (in this case, poor) individuals of a species are being weeded out. Humans try to twart natural selection all the time. . .look at all the critically ill and otherwise braindead people we keep on devices. . .or mentally ill patients we keep seperate in a "safe" building. . .or all the handicap people. . .these individuals of our species (for the most part) are not productive to society. In nature, these individuals would not exist and would not live long enough to procreate. In nature of course, but not in our humane society. This is not saying that I wish all these people to have to suffer or die. . .I am simply stating that what is occuring in New Orleans can be very much likened to survival of the fittest that we see in nature - something that humans consistantly try to place themselves above.

La Sailor Luna

09-05-2005, 06:01 PM

How bout I say this, hmm?

Let's see, ummmm, fuck Bush, and everybody who likes his dirty, stinking, not giving a damn about nothin but oil ASS!!!!!!!!!!! I'm soooooooo fucking fed up with this shit. This is sad, so very sad, and ya'll gonna sit up here and defend this son of a bitch?!! Are you f****ing mad?!! This bitch is going to send us all to HELL!! Do you see what he did to the gas prices? He fucking LIED!!!! I AM SOOOOO FREAKIN DISGUSTED WIT THIS BULL!!!!! Don't fuckin get on Matt Alan because of one mistake, fuck that shit!! Matt Cruea, news flash, we're not here to entertain you, go watch the fuckin t.v. or something. I might get kicked out of here for my language or whatever, but I will go down with a fight, you best believe that. This crap right here, is fucking rediculous. I don't care who's fault this is, but I know one thing though, instead of putting up the gas prices and waiting a week to help them people, he coulda got off his pretzel chkoking ass and done something about it!!! You don't just sit there and play golf while people are dying you ass-hole!! And I'm not really talking to anyone specific here but Bush, because I hate him, I don't care what none of ya'll gotta say about him to me, that is just my opinion. I know I'm ranting and raving and sounding stupid, but you don't sit there and make fun of someone especially if they got family down in Louisiana that could've died. So my props and prayers are going out to Matt Alan. And I agree with what Sexy Lexy had to say also. I'm tired of this shit happenin because no one gives a damn, that's why we're in the trouble that we're in. Don't you see? God is trying to tell us something here, if we don't start giving a damn about someone else but ourselves, then we're ALL..... GOING........ TO..... DIE!!!!! I know we don't have to, god forbid we actually help somebody else out huh? Yeah, let's give away a couple of pennies to the poor, that's all I can afford. Ummmm, how bout no? That would be a negative, get off your high horse and help somebody!! It's really not that hard. I don't care no more about this, I'm going to help as many people as I can and do what I gotta do to survive, cause I don't know about ya'll, but I'm going to heaven, I don't care who's in charge, Bush is not taking me down with him. And that's all I have to say about this right now.

P.S. Matt Cruea, your freaking two faced man. How you gonna disagree with Sexy the whole time then turn around and have a change of heart, no, stick with what you was saying earlier about the whole whore house shit. Don't chagne now cause you scared or somethin, grow some b***** nigga, plz. That's that bull shit. :shutup :rawr

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 06:03 PM

I've said my piece in regards to Matt Alan. Back to the subject at hand.

The race factor

Sadly, there is more to say about the race factor. When it became apparent to those who could not evacuate that they needed to evacuate, there was a rash of car thefts. Basically, anyone who could was breaking into and stealing cars to drive out of New Orleans. The police made little or no response to this rash of car theft until it spread into a rich area (the name of which I cannot remember) at which point the Police SWAT was out in force, there were snipers on the rooftops, the whole deal.

Snip
Ignorance + Rage = Hilarious

La Sailor Luna

09-05-2005, 06:10 PM

I've said my piece in regards to Matt Alan. Back to the subject at hand.

Sadly, there is more to say about the race factor. When it became apparent to those who could not evacuate that they needed to evacuate, there was a rash of car thefts. Basically, anyone who could was breaking into and stealing cars to drive out of New Orleans. The police made little or no response to this rash of car theft until it spread into a rich area (the name of which I cannot remember) at which point the Police SWAT was out in force, there were snipers on the rooftops, the whole deal.

Ignorance + Rage = Hilarious

I'm sorry but where the hell do you see snip? And I don't get in rage and I'm not ignorant, but I am hillarious, thanx!! :-D

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 06:10 PM

P.S. Matt Cruea, your freaking two faced man. How you gonna disagree with Sexy the whole time then turn around and have a change of heart, no, stick with what you was saying earlier about the whole whore house shit. Don't chagne now cause you scared or somethin, grow some b***** nigga, plz. That's that bull shit. :shutup :rawr

DON'T CALL ME NO NIGGA. I FUCKIN HANG YOU SPEARCHUCKA BITCH.

MAN LATINO4LYFE.

But hey, ya know, read posts and you'll know Lexy was talking about something completely different than before and that I agree with it.

You're crazy, though. Don't you live in Georgia? Stop bringing my state down. I'm certain all of our internet troll positions are filled right now. I mean, I'm doing the hiring, right?

I dunno what Matt Alan's on about. I know he has relatives there, but I don't know what any of that has to do with his earlier post that I replied to.

Have any of you guys been reading the Interdictor LJ? It's awesome.

The whole Paypal/SomethingAwful situation pisses me off. What a bunch of idiots at Paypal.

It's not about race. Jesse Jackson is a moron. If anything it's about class.

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 06:13 PM

I apologize. I did not curse enough in my last post to make myself seem like the hero of the internet.

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 06:14 PM

In New Orleans, at least, race and class go hand in hand.

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 06:17 PM

Oh, come on. There are homeless and poor whites, blacks, hispanics, Vietnamese, Chinese, etc. etc. in New Orleans. If any city were a melting pot...

I don't think we have FEMA's chief saying "Man, there's only black people there. Let's wait a few days."

La Sailor Luna

09-05-2005, 06:23 PM

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 06:24 PM

The population of New Orleans was made up of 30.6% white, 62.1% black, 2.5% asian, and 4.7% hispanic/latin. This melting pot was predominantly black. No one has to say "They're black so they're low priority." That would be political suicide. But just because something isn't overt doesn't mean that it isn't a factor. When you see enough trends like this, you have to draw some conclusion, and the two conclusions that always fit the most are race and wealth.

http://www.graduatingengineer.com/jobmarkets/neworleans_2001.html

Edit: Wow, La Luna seems to be going solo in an attempt to get this thread shut down completely. Though I still stand by my previous comment, and I am laughing-- quite a bit.

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 06:26 PM

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 06:27 PM

La Sailor Luna

09-05-2005, 06:31 PM

You say mine was, not counting yours huh? And yes, they would've responded quicker if there were more white people there, that's obvious.

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 06:33 PM

Do I honestly believe it? I am on the fence. The facts are there to support the possibility, though.

And what the hell is a mothachueka bitch?
Actually, it was spearchucka; a movie reference to a movie whose name I have forgotten, but where a man took the name William Shakespeare as a racial insult, and turned it around to Spear-chucka.

La Sailor Luna

09-05-2005, 06:39 PM

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 06:40 PM

Until we get reports of people being turned away because they're black, I can't blame the biggest governmental failure of all time on racism.

Luna: How is it obvious?

And my post was a joke. Yours was racist.

MORE HURRICANE ON TOPIC: The Scorpions and Bob Dylan are definitely in low demand for concert appearances now.

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 06:41 PM

I'm gonna go eat lunch and not be insane for a moment.

BRB, HURRICANE.

La Sailor Luna

09-05-2005, 06:44 PM

How was mine racist? And it's obvious because all of those people died, if there were more white people, alot of more people would have lived don't you think so?

Matt Cruea

09-05-2005, 06:51 PM

How was mine racist? And it's obvious because all of those people died, if there were more white people, alot of more people would have lived don't you think so?

Are hurricanes attracted to certain skin pigments?

Because if so, we need to evacuate the Carribean, post haste.

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 06:53 PM

Until we get reports of people being turned away because they're black, I can't blame the biggest governmental failure of all time on racism.

Anyone who blames it completely on racism has an agenda to push. I'm simply stating that racism could be a factor. SexyLexy's latest post probably words it better than I can.

ig.

09-05-2005, 07:00 PM

Aye - no better display of human nature juxtaposed against natural nature have I seen in a while.

And this thread does indeed own. I wanna get incensed too!

Rasha

09-05-2005, 07:11 PM

<-------Loves Sailor Luna's post, btw! ^_- Now see. . . this is becoming both and informative AND entertaining post at the same time! See, we're all mature and can handle this type of arguement/discussion!

Anyway, yes. . .it IS about class, but the black people will tell you it's about race. Why? Cuz the majority (no, not EVERYONE) of the lower class left are black. And minorities always have to make it a MINORITY thing for some reason. But you know what, there's a reason why there are stereotypes and why we associate lower income families there with a specific race - it's because they are the majority! It's like when black people get upset when we associate them with gangsters and crime - well you know what. . .there's a reason why! Statistics don't lie! It's not saying that all black people are criminals or that white or Asian or Arab or whatever people don't commit crimes. . .it's just statistical. So no, we are not NOT helping people down there because they are of a certain race. . .it's because they are poor and the people in charge feel as if they have nothing to offer society and will be more of a burden so they aren't worth saving. Very sad.

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 07:20 PM

Statistics don't lie!

87.3% of statistics are made up on the spot. If you back away enough from the picture, race is a factor. Of course, that is a phrase that is getting ignored alot recently. Race is a factor. It's not the cause, it's a cause, one of a few. If you say it is a matter of class, then we need to look at class. When we look at class, we see that blacks earn less on average than whites (I could search for a statistic to back this up, but for now I won't.) So if the issue is poverty, we can just take a look at some statistics and say "now, who is most likely to be poor?"

You'll never find hard proof that race is part of the issue, but it's not exactly a strangled root to tie race, class, and the poor response time together.

Tom

09-05-2005, 07:22 PM

I'm not sure what to believe regarding racism and the relief effort.

On one hand, I think the racism card was pulled out completely out of nowhere. You've got Jesse Jackson doing his thing down there and Kanye West blurting out "George Bush doesn't care about black people" on a national NBC telathon. I'm not sure how much I agree with that statement. I think that perhaps Bush doesn't care much about poor black people, or poor people in general--but how much that actually affected his response to the situation, I don't know. I do think that Kanye's comment was so candid that it was actually funny, but I also think that a telathon wasn't the best forum for that sort of thing.

Mike spun an interesting perspective on this whole thing yesterday, though. The whole country is outraged when blonde white girl, Natalie Holloway, goes missing in Aruba. It's on the freaking news for MONTHS without any actual breaking development in the story, and all of America watches. Now, imagine a thousand Natalie Holloways in a similar situation to the people of NOLA. What if there were a thousand rich, blonde haired white girls drowning in their homes somewhere, and in this instance we had no prior warning? Do you think the country would have responded quicker? Do you think it would take a week to save them, give them food and water? Do you think Bush would wait to suspend a vacation? Do you think Condoleeza Rice would disregard the situation and go buy shoes in New York?

I lean towards no. But, again, this is hypothetical. My question is, is responding better in a situation like that versus responding in the poor way we have in NOLA a product of racism? Even if it's not, something is wrong with the picture.

Rasha

09-05-2005, 07:38 PM

87.3% of statistics are made up on the spot. If you back away enough from the picture, race is a factor. Of course, that is a phrase that is getting ignored alot recently. Race is a factor. It's not the cause, it's a cause, one of a few. If you say it is a matter of class, then we need to look at class. When we look at class, we see that blacks earn less on average than whites (I could search for a statistic to back this up, but for now I won't.) So if the issue is poverty, we can just take a look at some statistics and say "now, who is most likely to be poor?"

You'll never find hard proof that race is part of the issue, but it's not exactly a strangled root to tie race, class, and the poor response time together.

So. . .that's basically what I said. Blacks make up the majority of the lower income people, which is why it's MORE of a class thing and not a race thing. I can't be sure because I'm not there, but I would guess the weathly black people are doing just fine and are out of the city. So back to my original point, the poor black people are left for last to be saved. . .oh yeah, and all the other races that are low income too. Think about it. . .who would the government use their resources to save first? Probably the people that are in power and have money because they're more likely to benefit the society. They don't want to save poor people who are going to suck away resources and probably give nothing back in return. A life is a life. . .nothing else should matter. But it does. . .you're only worth saving if you're going to do your part for the country.

Chris Nagy

09-05-2005, 07:46 PM

So. . .that's basically what I said. Blacks make up the majority of the lower income people, which is why it's MORE of a class thing and not a race thing.
Except that when you look at why blacks make up the majority of lower income people, it becomes a race issue.

Merr

09-05-2005, 07:54 PM

Here's my two cents on the issue.

I seriously doubt that race was an issue. Not because I think people are pushing an agenda, and not because I'm defending the administration, but simply because it's far too difficult for the government to actually set-up such a scheme.

If you ask anyone who works for the federal government, they'll tell you how inefficient everything is. It's practically impossible for there to be a "government conspiracy" because they can barely get things done as is. It would take way to much organization and communication and since everyone is arguing with each other all the time anyways (take the DOJ and FBI for example) there's absolutely no way something like this could happen.

SexyLexy

09-05-2005, 07:56 PM

Jesse Jackson is a COMPLETE MORON and isn't doing the left any favors. I really dislike him. Strongly.

That being said, Rasha, your Darwinist 'survival of the fittest' argument was a bit alarming. I am certainly not going to resort to breaking Godwin's law, but 'weeding out the weak,' is, by its very nature, an extremely rightist take on fatalism. Darwin's theories and the inherent chaos of mother nature have been used and twisted to suit fascistic means to an end since time immemorial, regardless of whether or not the term was 'coined' yet. [READ: I am NOT calling anyone a fascist. I am simply explaining some of the previous uses of a similar argument. Calm down.]

It is not Mother Nature that put mostly poor people in the most flooded areas. It is the result of an endless series of socioeconomic and political events. Classes mix so rarely that it is difficult to think of any instance, save perhaps a few political rallies, where all classes will be equally represented and therefore affected should some disaster occur. I don't know if you read my response to your question, but some of this is evident in the treatment of evacuees.

In metropolitan areas, minorities are more numerous than caucasians (edit: I mean the people who actually LIVE in the crime-ridden areas, not just those who work there; this varies by individual city). Therefore, it makes sense that the criminals are mostly black. In white neighborhoods, most of the criminals are white. What you will see on television, however, is a hugely disproportionate representation of black criminals over white ones.

Example. Thursday on CNN: Two news stations, I believe ABC and MSNBC, aired pictures of two different people taking food from a store in New Orleans. The black guy's subtitle was 'Looter.' The white guy's subtitle was 'Scavenger.'

Bias and prejudice are so ingrained in society that we hardly notice. It's the little things like the example above that do an incredible amount of damage in so little time.

SexyLexy

09-05-2005, 08:05 PM

Except that when you look at why blacks make up the majority of lower income people, it becomes a race issue.

Shazaam. ;)

Conspiracy? JFK? Wha? XD

I don't think anyone has to 'conspire' or even INTEND to discriminate. The city was already populated in such a way that any play of the same disaster would probably result in similar ends: more poor people die than rich people, and almost all of the poor people in NO are black. I'm pretty sure it's the same way in Biloxi, but I can't be positive. Discrimination is a built-in factor.

Merr

09-05-2005, 08:16 PM

Discrimination is a built-in factor.
I agree with you there.

The hurricane damage just makes this discrimination more apparent. However, I don't believe that there was a conscious effort to delay relief because of race, or even class. I'm sure if an equal amount of damage was done to Glastonbury, CT things would've taken just as long.

I can certainly empathize with the people who believe they've gotten cheated because of race issues, but their anger seems misdirected. Forcing legislation to prevent racism in disaster isn't going to accomplish much in the long run. I'd much rather see people work to remove the racism that placed these victims in such a precarious situation in the first place.

Rasha

09-05-2005, 09:33 PM

Except that when you look at why blacks make up the majority of lower income people, it becomes a race issue.

But you see, I believe you're missing the point. In this situation, the government doesn't care that the poor people happen to be black. . .they care that they happen to be poor. The only people turning this into a race issue instead of a class issue are those looking for a reason to bring race into the mix.

And I'm not suggesting that it's right for the poor people to die when I explained my survival of the fittest example, but GOD FORBID humans should have to finally submit to Mother Nature when we work so hard to rise above it. It's just like when a plague rips through an area - those who can afford diagnosis and treatment survive, those who can't afford or don't have access to medical attention, don't.

Nikki Wright

09-05-2005, 11:42 PM

Mock me all you want to immature fuck. I don't give a damn about yo country ass state. I'm from Philly motha fucka, don't mess with me. And what the hell is a mothachueka bitch? Learn english fag. You're not funny and no one likes you so get off me. And you act like being a latino is sooooo much better than being a nigga? Plz, we're fighting the same fight here beano, I don't give a fuck who you are. I got Puerto Rican in me son, and you're making us all look bad typing like that. So, put a sock in it. Don't nobody care about what you got to say.
Okay. I was called attention to this thread because of some other people, but I keep seeing your immature posts.

La Sailor Luna: There's a reason why I've deleted your post in the MJ Trial thread, and unfortunately, I would delete these posts, but they've already been read.

Stop calling people names and threatening them. For this, I'm giving you a warning.

Even if you disagree with some of the discussion that's been presented, that in no way gives you a right to fly off the handle like you've been doing. I don't care who you are, where you're from, or any other aspect of a human being, you don't act like this anywhere and especially not here. It doesn't make you look cool, and it will earn you more enemies than friends.

Honestly think before you sit down and go off on someone. Maybe use mature words and act like an adult. I realize you're 15, but I'm positive you know better than that.

Matt and Chris -- The dyanmic duo? Stop fueling the fire, please. You two know better.

Tom and Rasha -- I <3 you both. >D I really would like to not have to lock this thread.... e.e

Nikki Wright

09-05-2005, 11:55 PM

Very rarely do I double post, especially so off-topic, but I've tried to edit my post three times and my browser just keeps locking up on me when I try to [happens a lot e.e]

Anyway. If anyone has anything to say to me in regards to the statement above, PM or IM me thanks.

Matt Cruea

09-06-2005, 01:05 AM

I still think you guys are talking about a class issue that it just so happens to be able to be misconstrued as a race issue, when it is not a race issue, and when it's not even a class issue in the way people are thinking.

Tom

09-06-2005, 05:54 AM

Matt Cruea

09-06-2005, 05:57 AM

Oh Barbara... you IDIOT.

Merr

09-06-2005, 12:45 PM

Oh Barbara... you IDIOT.
Now now, Barbara Bush has always been dumber than a box of rocks, so this really isn't anything new for her.

Mindychan

09-06-2005, 03:08 PM

It saddens me that even in the face of nature's worst, someone SOMEwhere will pull the racial card. As if the hurricanes know the difference between skin colors and government doings.

"Yo, hurricane Bubba! I'm going over here where all the latinos are. Need to eradicate some of them."
"Sure thing! I'm going to pay a visit to the poor blacks. The government's going to respond slowly anyways..."

I want to be a hurricane.

La Sailor Luna

09-06-2005, 04:46 PM

Thanks Rasha for agreeing with me, as for the earlier posts, I am sorry that I cused and everything but that made me mad what he said to me and I had to stick up for what I believed in, I thought it was wrong to make fun of someone even if they sounded stupid at what they said, mainly Matt Alan. He already told all of them that he had family down there that could've died. For them to make fun of him was heartless. Next time, if you're not serious about calling someone a b****, then don't even say it because I take that very very offensively, if you're joking or not. I don't care, don't call someone that name. But how I acted was immature so I take credit for that, but I can admit to my mistakes, can they? I'm 15, they're at least 20 yrs old, and I'm being immature? And I didn't say those things to look cool, that's not my goal here. I said those things because I was greatly offended. So once again, I'll just say sorry.

Thank you. :smile:

Chris Nagy

09-06-2005, 09:19 PM

He already told all of them that he had family down there that could've died. For them to make fun of him was heartless.
I'm sorry if I don't believe that tragedy befalling one person has anything to do with how another person acts on a forum, even if they are related. If Matt Alan came into the thread pissed off for whatever reason about what we were saying, I would have let that pass without comment. To come in for what essentially was a really weak cheapshot? No real call for it, no real excuse for it.

But how I acted was immature so I take credit for that, but I can admit to my mistakes, can they? I'm 15, they're at least 20 yrs old, and I'm being immature?
I didn't make any mistakes. The worst anyone can say about my part in all of this is that I was being "mean," but that's an opinion and my own opinion is that everything I did was justified and reactionary, I didn't force anyone to become a target or enter the thread. The difference is that I can try to cut someone to shreds without breaking any rules or insulting them (unless you consider using someone's words against them as an insult.) To be fair, I don't go out of my way to do it, either.

But you see, I believe you're missing the point. *snip*
Here's where we get to go around in circles. If race has an impact on class, and class is a factor in a situation, race is a factor by proxy. I've stated repeatedly that you won't find a shred of evidence that race is a factor in the government's reaction. Did the government reactly poorly because a majority of the people in New Orleans are black? No. Is this situation as bad as it is because of the city being populated mostly by blacks? I submit that this is a defendable conclusion. In my search for statistics, I've yet to find a major US city with a large population of black people who weren't mostly poor. The situation has race as a factor, even if the government's response does not.

Edit: I might as well make it clear that I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another about whether this situation is racially motivated, but since there are so many who are on one side of the fence, I'm gladly manning the other side.

Cheshire

09-06-2005, 09:55 PM

Barbara Bush, and husband George H. W. Bush, appeared on CNN today and talked about their tour of relief centers in Texas.

"Almost everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to Houston. ... What I’m hearing which is sort of scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality," said Barbara.

I thought they were doing really great, until towards the end when Barbara "The Bitch" Bush, actually says, and I quote:

*bitchslap*

...
And here I was almost starting to like her.

Gah, this whole thing just makes me extremely depressed. Honestly, I can't even watch the news anymore, because I'm just so sick of hearing people blame the government, throw in the possible race factor, and everything else.As far as I'm concerned, it's no one's fault. It's just nature being nature.

Now, am I upset with how the government responded to this? Yes. I beleive that things could have been done a LOT faster. Because of the delay on their part, too many people died, who might noy have otherwise. However, I do realize, as much as I dislike it, that the government also just couldn't rush in there as soon as it happened.

Do I believe race played a factor in this? Personally, I don't know. Until I am given some facts, I'm not going with either side.

I'm just sick of hearing the complaining: about the government, and everything else. These people don't need press conferences, they don't need political leaders coming to shake their hands, they don't need people arguing about whose fault this is. They just need help, because they've got a long road to recovery ahead of them. No one can do anything to undo what happened, but they can do something to help in the aftermath.