online va's getting dissed and fandubs at this link

[princedraco]

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=140419&page=4&pp=20
(it starts middle/bottom of page)

People are complaining about not having sailor stars airing on tv or on dvd and stuff, so being a nice guy i say negavision is doing it and they can watch it on dvd that way. Then ppl start bashing negavision and how all the va's are horriblea and im defending online va's and fandubs cause people saying we all suck and are horrible.

my last post will probably get deleted or banned cause i started calling the one dude a piece of sh*t and stuff lol.

[princedraco]

Only defending the people and thing (vaing and fandubs) I love would this happen lol:

pdracox23, your conduct in this thread: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthre...19&page=1&pp=30, particularly in relation to this post: http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost...58&postcount=83 is against the forum rules as outlined here: http://forums.toonzone.net/faq.php?...aq_new_faq_item as you were insulting another user, which counts as flaming by the Toon Zone Rules. This is your first warning. Depending on your future conduct, you could be banned from ToonZone.net permanently. I highly recommend you reread the FAQ and change your conduct accordingly before posting again on Toon Zone.

The offending post will be deleted for it's incidary remarks.

-Karl Olson
Anime Forum Moderator

[Matt Cruea]

Pointe The First: "Fandubs are just as illegal as fansubs!"

I bet you a million dollars he doesn't know Japanese and that he watched Sailor Stars in fansub form.

Pointe The Second: The mod there is an idiot.

[Azure]

Not suprising,you will almost never get mainstream acceptance for any fan dub that isn't transformers or a parody, and that's a sad fact. They of course could not watch it and watch the subs, it's not as if it's been eaten by 4kids.

[Lucien]

Fuck 'em.

Besides, if official dubs get so much criticism and scorn, the way those same people see fandubs is going to be no better. Forget them.

[princedraco]

We should start a revolution and invade! lol j/k

[McCorvic Sucks]

People still care about Sailor Stars? Interesting.

If you haven't learned by now that you shouldn't blatantly shout out support for anything that comes close to "copyright infringment" then you need to spend more time lurking. I dunno how it happened, but people online flip out about that stuff these days.

[Lucien]

People still care about Sailor Stars? Interesting.

If you haven't learned by now that you shouldn't blatantly shout out support for anything that comes close to "copyright infringment" then you need to spend more time lurking. I dunno how it happened, but people online flip out about that stuff these days.

Then I demand that all those people delete all their music MP3s that didn't come from CDs they bought.

[Jing]

Yes. I agree. We should all delete our MP3s... and that would kill my whole HDD... it would by empty.

As for that guy... he CAN'T understand Japanese and is maybe... homosexual?

[Hikuro]

I honestly hate those type of people who claim their "Otaku" and have smelly feet...*cough*

Sakuracon I was stuck next to someone like that. Some other people and I were talking about Gundam...how SEED is a decent AU title but many still perfer the old UC timeline. Well than this guy goes off "SEED IS INFERIOR! Your brains are that of dogs if you watch it espically in dub!"

Tried to ignore the guy but finally I just told him "Look, people enjoy CERTAIN animes, you my friend are one of those. While your opinion is noted, its not wanted. Please don't butt in."

Than..."And Gundam sucks either way. Your a freak if you watch that Sentai wanna be.".......... :roll: and following that, I was talking about Macross...."Macross sucks! Its a Gundam wanna be!" .......oh I nearly decked him.

I told a few people I do fandubbing and that I've been apart of it for a year. That damn guy again, "Your a freak! Fansubbing is the only way! I've translated over a dozen different shows within the last week man!"..........gah...I'm bitching I'm sorry.

Still, I hate those people....espically the long haired messy beard, huge gut, sandle wearing ones.
And if anyone of you guys dresses like that, I love you, don't hate you, nessessarly.....*hides the light saber*

[SeiyruRenaih]

Yes. I agree. We should all delete our MP3s...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/SeiyruRenaih/whatami.jpg

I'd certainly have a lot more space. lol

[Lucien]

As for that guy... he CAN'T understand Japanese and is maybe... homosexual?

I fail to see the corelation between the two.

[ClymAngus]

Everyone knows my opinion on Fan subs and dubs, if it floats ya boat then chalk it down as leasure time and just enjoy it, count me out but I'm not judging anyone on where they find their fun, but when someone knocks the site. Then things become a little more personal. "Master Moron" eh ? How wonderfully appropriate.

*reads more* that is so rectum. It's a cartoon dude, not some religous text, get a grip. WOAH! I've just read through the main contents of most of his posts, if someone accidentally cut his cable TV connection, he'd like...... die or something.


So, they're premiering Family Guy on Sunday now instead of Thursday? that's cool, wonder why Fox won't let them air American Dad on Sunday but they have no problem with them airing Family Guy on Sunday? So, what's going in the 11:30 spot? Don't tell me they're going to show a rerun of Family Guy after a new episode of Family Guy? Who's going to want to watch a rerun of Family Guy after a new episode? Oh, who am I kidding, I know their Family Guy Sundae with Chicken syrup will get me to stick around."

I rest my case. He's not a maker, he's a watcher, a critic, an endless consumer. Not worth listening too, or worth bothering with.

[Iscabibble]

As for that guy... he CAN'T understand Japanese and is maybe... homosexual?

I fail to see the corelation between the two.

I agree with Lucien. The hell?

[ClymAngus]

Yes. I agree. We should all delete our MP3s... and that would kill my whole HDD... it would by empty.

As for that guy... he CAN'T understand Japanese and is maybe... homosexual?

Sorry deary, but he would be a lot more cutting with his comebacks if he was a queen and he'd have better things to do than sitting in front of his googlebox 24-7.

34 year old virgin? Maybe, queer? Never.

[Henageshi]

I say screw him. He obviously isn't gonna be happy no matter who dubs the series. He also isn't carrying a very good argument in my opinion. But like you said, no English voice actor is gonna sound just like the Japanese seiyuu. Sounds to me that he just wants to real deal. If he wants to watch real Japanese TV shows, tell him to get off his @$$ and fly over to Japan and watch it himself over there. But maybe I'm wrong I dont know...^^;;;;

[Yoda117]

Gotta love posts like this.

What irritates me is when I see casting directors and management from anime distributors give a negative view of fansubs and dubs (mainly the former compared to the latter). I'm left thinking to myself, "guys... you're going to find out which of these series is popular, buy the rights and do the exact same thing. So why are you brushing them aside?"

I had an incident at Otakon about three years ago where someone in the industry was virulently against fandubs... however it was okay when he was doing them prior to his professional career.

:?

I look at it this way. Some people who want to do VOs aren't that good... others are (hey we all have our talents, but regardless points to you for getting out there and trying your heart out). Am I expecting to see a professional performance from a fandub? Not really... because the fandub studios don't always have the equipment to do the job, but they usually have a lot more heart than some of the professionals do.

In my many years with anime, I've learned this: Dubs, regardless of being professional or not don't suck... BAD DUBS SUCK!!!

The same is true with subtitled work as well... I've seen some stuff from ADV get butchered in translation with the subs. It comes with the territory.

As for the guy in the forum that spawned this debate. He's a traditionalist, and there's nothing wrong with it. Just remember that not everyone speaks Japanese (he probably doesn't either), and that they have the advantage of being the 1st generation track with the anime. Obviously it'll usually sound better. That said, certain dubs ("Cowboy Bebop", "FLCL") had better casting for the English tracks so they sound a lot better (IMHO). Additionally, one of the reasons "Ghost in the Shell" was so well received was that it was originally done in English and later done in Japanese...

As for Negavision, some of their folks behind the scenes have done pro work on the same series, so I give them a lot of respect and leeway. If people don't like it, that's their problem.

Finally, people's opinions are like armpits... they all stink (including mine).

[Merr]

Gotta love posts like this.
Additionally, one of the reasons "Ghost in the Shell" was so well received was that it was originally done in English and later done in Japanese...

Uh...no

You're probably thinking of Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust

Also, could you please explain this comment, I'm not quite sure what you mean by it.

I'm left thinking to myself, "guys... you're going to find out which of these series is popular, buy the rights and do the exact same thing. So why are you brushing them aside?"

[Yoda117]

You sure about that?

I thought that GitS was out in the US before it was in Japan, which is why it was such a big deal when it premiered here back in the mid-90s.

*might have to concede that one, but I thought that was the case*

Regardless... good English cast.

As for the second comment: I've been to a lot of expos in my days, and I find it onerous to hear representatives from professional companies brush aside fandubs and fansubs, especially since a sizable percentage of VOs have some from fandubs, and most of the anime distributors used to do fansubs back in the 80s and 90s. Some love the support that the fans give to undiscovered (or even known) series, but a lot cannot stand them. While I can understand why a company would not appreciate it if their licensed works were being re-subbed/dubbed and given out freely, I find it distasteful to hear someone from a company diss fandubbers (in several cases, they used to be AVAs), do some research on the title being fandubbed, and then buy the licensing rights. Maybe I'm too idealistic, but why was it okay when they were AVAing, but now it's not acceptable? Additionally, it's a bit ridiculous to casually dismiss someone's hard work, only to use it's popularity when it comes time to determine whether you want to buy the license for it.

Just my $0.02 though

[Merr]

First of all, very few voice actors started out as AVAs. Aside from Mandy Clark (who's no longer voice acting) and the few people from these boards who have made it into the industry, most VAs have never fandubbed something. So calling AVAs a "sizeable percentage" of the industry is a bit misleading.

Also, companies do not license something simply because it was popular as a fansub or fandub. In fact, now days the licensing process begins before a series is even released in Japan. And even if fansubs have been released, companies are much more likely to look at the show's popularity in Japan and how shows of a similar genre have done in the US market. Hardcore fans like fansub watchers make up a fairly small part of the market so their opinion is no necessarily going to reflect that of the mainstream market.

Of course it is hypocritcal for former fansubbers to rally against modern fansubs, but again, most industry folks did not come from the fansub circuit. And for the ones who did, that was a different time. When these people were doing fansubs, anime had little to know US exposure and fansubs were made on VHS tapes and were not distributed as widely as the digisubs of today. With the advent of the internet, millions of people can download an episode without ever having to pay a cent. Although the old fansubs did not support the industry, they never reached numbers that high and thus had a less damaging effect on the industry (especially since there was no industry to begin with)

Also, about dismissing people's hard work, bank robbers put a lot of effort into cracking the safe, but that doesn't change the fact that they comitted a crime. Fansubbing et cetera, although not at all on the same level, is still illegal. Even if you disagree with the law, that doesn't change that fact. So really, they are justified in complaining.

I have no qualms with fandubbing, mostly because we do stuff around here for the sake of dubbing, not to watch a show or movie without having to pay. But it is illegal, and those who rally against you are perfectly justified in doing so. All you can do is learn to ignore them. No matter how much you argue, the law is ultimately on their side.

EDIT: And GiTS was made with Americn financial backing and released at the same time in the US and Japan, but I don't think the English dub was actually made first.

[Yoda117]

Uhm... where did I say that it was okay to break the law?

I believe that I directly stated that I can understand why companies would take a dim view of people who release licensed material illegally... I know that I would. If something isn't licensed in this country it's fair game as far as I'm concerned, but once that changes... hand's off!

So... I'm having a little difficulty equating as to where the bankrobbing statement comes in (although lock picking is a hobby of mine, so I look at safecracking with a bit more interest).

And, yes other professional VO Artists have done AVA work, at least they claimed to have been AVAs prior to working in the industry. Since I was at the panel and heard it, I'm willing to give them a bit of credibility... At AXpo last year, there was a panel from a well-known company who's casting director admitted to being an avid AVA'er in their past, but then lambasted it when someone asked whether it was helpful for aspiring VO Actors.

BTW: At Otakon last year, some VAs made comment about using pseudonyms to continue doing AVA work every so often.

Sorry if you disagree with this, but I'm just relating what I've read and heard.

[Merr]

So... I'm having a little difficulty equating as to where the bankrobbing statement comes in (although lock picking is a hobby of mine, so I look at safecracking with a bit more interest).

Yeah, I probably should've made that one a bit clearer ^_^;

I was responding to your statement about the industry seeming to disregard fandubbers and fansubbers hard work. My analogy was that bank robbers put a lot of hard work into comitting a crime, but it's still a crime. So there's no reason for people to give them a pat on the back for all their effort.
Fandubbing is hardly the same thing mind you, but I was simply trying to state that hardwork is not automatically deserving of praise and acknowledgement.

Also, AVAing does not always mean fandubbing. The actors who do amateur stuff may work on original projects, not fandubbing. Perhaps the casting director was rallying more against fandubbing, not AVAing in and of itself. (I don't know though, he or she may have been a fandubber) But even then, he or she may have simply realized that fandubbing is illegal and he or she simply wants to discourage others from making a similar mistake as this person sees it.

Oh, and copyright law is international so just because something hasn't been licensed for domestic release, that doesn't mean it can be given out freely. And like I mentioned, licensing often begins before a series has aired in Japan, even if the actual announcement doesn't come out for a long time afterwards.

[Hawkeye_GGK]

Just a slight input here, but as far as I understood the Internation Copyright Laws, they actually protect fansubbing/dubbing.

The laws allow a little bit of slack for products which are quite altered in shape or form. As far as fansubs and dubs are concerned, adding and editing the original product into the afformentioned sub or dub creates an entirely new product. Now, this product still falls under the copyrights and protections of the original form, but the new product may be released and distributed as long as no party other than the owner of the original property was making money. That's why fansubbers must always add to their finished project, "THIS FANSUB IS FREE AND NOT FOR SALE OR RENT." It's a verbal/written adherance to the copyright laws which shows that it is a reformed version of an older product.

It's also the same for video games, such as how Seiken Densetsu 3 was never released in the United States, but there is a ROM version available online that translated the game into English. The persons responsible for the patched ROM do not make any money off of the highly altered version of the product and it is distributed for free, so it's kept safe as part of the same clause that fansubs/dubs fall under.

That was always my understanding of the law, anywho.

[Merr]

I don't know if that's actually the case

Here are two excerpts from the Berne Convention that pretty much say the original creator has the rights to allow translations, adaptations, etc.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/8.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/12.html

I'm not a copyright lawyer though so you may be correct ^_^

EDIT: and here's one that talks about the rights for broadcasting original works
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/11bis.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/14.html

[Hawkeye_GGK]

I don't know if that's actually the case

Here are two excerpts from the Berne Convention that pretty much say the original creator has the rights to allow translations, adaptations, etc.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/8.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/12.html

I'm not a copyright lawyer though so you may be correct ^_^

EDIT: and here's one that talks about the rights for broadcasting original works
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/11bis.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/14.htmlAs far as I understood it, that refers to rights given out in order to receive monetary compensation for the original product in question. Once the product has been altered to a state to where it is no longer comparable in several aspects to the original, then the product may be distrubuted for free so as not to infringe on the rights of the owner of the property and their right to allow diffusion of the product (Liscencing).

That's also why fansubs must no longer be distrubuted once a product is liscenced in an area. There will be an altered version of the product that is comperable to the fansub and therefore, the fansub would be infringing on that product.

I've been known to be wrong, but that's interpretation and still the interpretation I get from reading the laws.

[Merr]

As far as I understood it, that refers to rights given out in order to receive monetary compensation for the original product in question. Once the product has been altered to a state to where it is no longer comparable in several aspects to the original, then the product may be distrubuted for free so as not to infringe on the rights of the owner of the property and their right to allow diffusion of the product (Liscencing).

But the thing is, fansubs are translations. They have not been altered in a highly significant way. The translation itself falls under the rights of its creator, but the rights of the original work's creator supercede those of the translator. That means that you could give out a translation of the work only to people who already own the original work itself. Otherwise you're giving away a translated version plus the original work, and that is where the problem lies. This is why no one takes issue with the public distribution of translated scripts, because the only way to use them is by purchasing the original work.

Really, I don't think money has anything to do with it. The law clearly states that the copyright owner has control over public distribution, whether any money is made or not.

EDIT: and the rights over translation, adaptation, and distribution default to the original creator if they are not licensed to outside countries. So even though there is no domestic version of an anime available, the orginal work still belongs exclusively to it's creators and cannot be distributed and/or modified without their permission. That last part falls under the moral rights section, which is independent of the economic rights section, so no matter how you look at it, fansub/fandub distribution is illegal. However, it is perfectly legal to make a fansub/fandub as long as it is not distributed with the original work. e.g. if everyone who downloaded a fandub purchased the DVD, they would be doing nothing illegal. In fact, the fandub creator would have copyright control over it.

But this is getting waaaaaay off topic

[Miki-Chan]

Well, I think that reading that conversation just made me lose some brain cells. e.e It's obviously just an immature conversation on his part. Just leave him and his lonely self to chill in his chair for awhile. Maybe take it to PMing if you're that concerned.

...I honestly don't know anyone that fan-addicted... I can just hear, "Sailor Moon rules over my sad, little life! MARRY ME USAGI! *licks screen*"


And saying they are just as good as professional vas is an insult to professional vas.
What bothers me most about this statement is the fact that some AVAs are trying to become professional. *cocks eyebrow* Anyway, I say just let the situation go because it's difficult to try and converse with someone as ridiculous as he seems. ;P

[Yoda117]

About that last comment...


My philosphy is this: The only job where you start out on top is when you dig a hole. Goes for acting as much as anything else.

Just as importantly, being an equity actor does not necessarily make one a true professional. I know some community actors that outperform professional actors... it's all in how much training, heart and talent you put together in what you do.

But that's just me :)