WWII: Cause-And-Affect

[Lunamaria]

Okay, so I have always wanted to debate about this! History is truly a favored subject of mine, and I did quite well in it myself, and found it very intriguing. This board probably won't do to well, mind you, because it's not such a big deal next to GOD and Abortion, but... I still want to discuss it.

So, what do you think about the events?

What of the Pearl Harbor attack where the Japanese bombed The United States? Or when the United States atomically bombed the Japanese twice? Concentration camps? Fascisms' role in the war? Adolf Hitler? The triple axis?

Do you have some theory that the wars' start up wasn't completely the reprocussions of World War I and The Treaty Of Versailles?

Woo-hoo, debate on!

[ig.]

When war breaks out, always bet on the Central Powers, whoever they may be.

Always.

[Withoutyou]

IMO, all wars are fabricated with the purpose toward acheiving a one world government. The easiest way to unit people is to have a common enemy. Some might say this is impossible. Who would start a war and waste all the resource just to kill people? If you are the richest man in the world, by that I don't mean Bill Gate( he is nowhere near the richest man), you can actually make money by starting a war. War is a money making machine that can benefit many people, if you are on the "right" side.

War is also a tool to lower human population. Some people believe that most people shouldn't be living. If you are the richest man in the world who happens to believe that this planet is overpopulated with inferior people, then yes, you would definitely want to start a big war to kill off as many people as you can. I know I would.

But of course all these are just speculation. That's the nature of conspiracy. :)

[Hathor Liderc]

Well I think the first mistake by the Axis powers was the bomb the US. There have been many reports that both Germany and Japan had plans on attacking America. Originally, the US was in a state of isolation, and wanted little or nothing to do with the war, up until the bombing on Pearl Harbor.

The Second mistake by the Axis was Gemany's betrayal on Russia and Italy. Doing so repeated the events during WWI when they fought a 2-front war.

As for the bombings in Japan, while most believe it wasnt right, I believe it was brutal, but necessary for ending the war in the Pacific. At the time, Japan was a country that took great pride in their warriors. If we hadn't, they would have sent every last man and child to fight. If the US surrendered to Japan, they would've seen America as below scum and the end result would be something similar to the Bataan death marches.

In the end, I think Japan ended up getting back at America by producing better-quality goods as well as having made a LOT more technological advances than we have.

Anyway, thats my take on it. Whether you agree or disagree is your choice.

[Hikuro]

who ever voted that "it was a mistake"......is retarded. Think about that when you're looking back at the countless numbers who died in pearl harbor.

[Seeshelle]

i need a refresher..what happened at WWII? how did it become a war and what was the outcome?
The Treaty Of Versailles..sounds so familiar. what does it mean again?

[Cheshire]

i need a refresher..what happened at WWII? how did it become a war and what was the outcome?
The Treaty Of Versailles..sounds so familiar. what does it mean again?...Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), or a general history book, is your friend.

Also, the Treaty of Versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles) was the peace treaty between the Allied Powers and Germany that officially ended WWI.

[Lunamaria]

Like Chesire said, it's the treaty that ended WWI, but all the blame ended up on Eastern Germany which was supposedly one of the starting flames for the second war.



The Second mistake by the Axis was Gemany's betrayal on Russia and Italy. Doing so repeated the events during WWI when they fought a 2-front war.

As for the bombings in Japan, while most believe it wasnt right, I believe it was brutal, but necessary for ending the war in the Pacific.

Amen! I had to debate in my World History class with the teacher and another girl on this point. They were all for karma, which is why I put the karma answer on the poll, and I was on the side of boming Japan.

Yes, it was misfotunate, but Japan really needed it to some extent; they were going crazy during the war. They would have sent out everyone they could have. Besides, America did help build them back up, and now they're the leaders of the world's electronics.

The U.S warned them as well.

[Seeshelle]

...Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), or a general history book, is your friend.

Also, the Treaty of Versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles) was the peace treaty between the Allied Powers and Germany that officially ended WWI.
i heard wikipedia isn't very accurate. oh yeah..that was what the treaty about,

[ClymAngus]

The treaty paved the way for world war 2 by exacting crippling reperations from Germany. To prevent this happening again a doctren of total capitulation was adopted in WW2. Some would say this paved the way for the dropping of the H-bombs.

Onto the entire WW2 US hand wringing thing:
Well we did pay you. You got to actually womp an enemy that would have given no quarter and you made a profit into the bargain.

Oh, and you got bragging rights too. Pity about the loss of life but then war was never a respecter of civil liberties. So yeah bit of a win, win really.

[Tom]

No real comment I wish to put forth regarding the relationship between Japan and the USA during the war, except:

The internment camps that were established by the USA, where a vast amount of the country's Japanese-American residents were forced to relocate to--the majority of which were even American citizens of Japanese descent--was completely horrible.

It was tragic. The growing madness stemming from the war blew an already existing resentment of those of Japanese-descent into a full blown dehumanizing situation.

Many Europeans were also placed into these camps (they were a "threat"), which, I guess, just speaks of the nutsoid things that happen to people during times of war.

Granted, those sent to these internment camps were not being exterminated, or being tortured, or anything like that which was happening in the concentration camps run by the Nazi's; but, if you think about it . . . that was pretty fucked up of us. o.O;;

Canada, btw, also set up similar camps, which is just a random factoid I thought I'd throw in there. :P

Our involvement in the war is an example of how affected the world-view of American society is. Don't misunderstand me, though; every nation is guilty of culture-bound perspectives, and nothing's wrong with having pride in your country.
But, at least from my academic experience, unless you're in a higher learning institution (college, university, etc), almost nothing is taught to you about other important world events; and if they are, they're merely skimmed over.

Most of what we teach children basically vilifies anyone our country's ever had so much of a yo-momma exchange with. There's no objectivity.

Then again, I did live in Florida during most of my primary education period, so I don't really have the strongest foundation to generalize against the, most probable, excellence in other places that do offer a relatively well rounded schooling. lol

:P

[Mat Growcott]

Just to chuck another hat into the ring! (Hi everyone! I'm back until i get bored)

The problem with looking at WWII is you're going to be instantly biased! "OMG! Germany killed jews, homosexuals, jehova's witness etc. OMG, Japan bomber pearl harbour. OMG America bombed Hiroshima."

But looking at it all objectively it all starts sort of...forming. You start seeing WHY people acted the way they did. Hitler, no matter what you say about his personal hang-ups, was a fantastic politician...he brought together many nations in belief of the same thing, people were generally happier...Imagine what a man with his charisma and power would have done if he wasn't a complete asshole.

The bombing of pearl harbour was, for the war in general, a blessing in disguise. WWII in many way's was America's fault. The League of Nations had been set up by an american, but then they hadn't got involved in running that, so it was left up to France and England, neither country who had enough resources to stop Hitler when he eventually invaded the Rhineland. Had America (well, the people running america) been involved in Germanies (Very unfair) punishments, they'd have been stuck with them and would have practically disappeared and become a third world nation. Which while not nice, it would have completely cut out WWII and the cold war as we know it.

However, America decided it didn't want anything to do with the war until the Japanese forced america into it. Which helped the war effort enourmously.

Er....rambled.

Hi Again all...

[Kevin Gillis]

Canada, btw, also set up similar camps, which is just a random factoid I thought I'd throw in there. :P





They did, but the government now pays those families as an apology for their treatment in those camps... They were forced to handle nitro-glyercine in the mountains for our trains and also made to work in Alberta to make roads...

[Lunamaria]

Hitler, no matter what you say about his personal hang-ups, was a fantastic politician...he brought together many nations in belief of the same thing, people were generally happier...Imagine what a man with his charisma and power would have done if he wasn't a complete asshole.

Yes, this is true. It takes a man with amazing words to help fuel a war. I mean, he didn't really start the war, but he played a large role in it. And, as sad as it is, I do also think that Pear Harbor, although tragic, was the reason the U.S entered the war, which is what they should have done in the first places.

Neutrals never work out; atleast not for super powers like the U.S, Russia, Germany, etc.,

[Hathor Liderc]

Amen! I had to debate in my World History class with the teacher and another girl on this point. They were all for karma, which is why I put the karma answer on the poll, and I was on the side of boming Japan.

Yeah, I remember debating with a kid from Romania, who underexaggerated everything about Germany's involvement in the war, also stating that everything that was recorded, was a complete lie, thus claiming that the US and the UK were the villains in the matter, saying something like this...



...Asia and Europe are the most trust worthy and developed. Everything and everyone else should not always be 100% trusted nor respected.

He later followed up with this:


I'm using real facts to defend and protect my blue and pure race from destruction of others. A noble cause.

...Which, along with his anti-American sentiment, REALLY bothered me...

[Lunamaria]

...Asia and Europe are the most trust worthy and developed.

xD give me a break? North Korea? China? North Korea and China have threatened Nuclear Warfare on us, as well as Russia.

I think only Western Europe is trustable, but this doesn't extend to every European country. And, I think the only ones to trust in Asia are Japan and S Korea, but I don't know all the details on all the countries, only on the ones I have knowledge of, so this may very well be an incomplete truth.

However, I place no trust in North Korea or China politically or anything in the realm of government or war.

[Hathor Liderc]

I know...N. Korea has nukes and an itchy trigger finger and wont hesitate to launch them on anyone who provokes them.

Russia, hates Bush and only tolorates him because he's an idiot.

[Lunamaria]

Russia, hates Bush and only tolorates him because he's an idiot.

N Korea is extremely trigger happy. My thoughts on Russia... well, after the deal with power stuggle going on that happened a while ago, I'm not so sure.

Bush? Well... I liked him in his first term, but after his second, especially with his 'solutions' to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Well, let's just say I'm disappointed.

[Kevin Gillis]

Despite the lateness in my post, I noticed a few things...

First off, history is written by the winners... can't deny that. so of course the winners blame everything on the losers. That is the main purpose of writing a history is it not? Now if you were born in Germany or an allied country during Hitler's reign and survived you'd be pretty pissed and would still think that Hitler was right. That's up to the individual to how he thinks, if he chooses to act on it then good luck, he'll more than likely fail.

Anyways, due to the fact that history is written by the winners it's hard to figure out what the opposing side thought since most of those books are either locked away somewhere or destroyed.

Anyways... I'm done

[Seissha]

What of the Pearl Harbor attack where the Japanese bombed The United States?
Japan began to believe in militarism. After occupying China, Korea, and other islands they got a big head and tried a dirty attack. Of course, after the factor they thought "Oh shit. We're fuuuuucked"

Or when the United States atomically bombed the Japanese twice?
Depends on what view you mean. Democratically or miliatarily? Democratic view was to get rid of the war quicker and with no more loss, but what of the islands we invaded such as the Battle of Iwo Jima? We lost more casualties then they did and did you know we were bombing cities waaay before the Atomic bombs? Democratically, we wanted to end the war quicker AND send a message to the Soviet Union saying " I dare you to act up to." They were becoming greedy bastards on due part that we gave them power. People didn't like the USA and Soviet's bond and therefore in a way Japan was used as an example. Pearl Harbor just gave us a "reason".


Concentration camps?
There are those that actually believe it never happened. Sad, isn't it?
As for the camps we had to put the Japanese in, I can't really say. People were scared. Things like that happen when people are frightened from the unknown. It happens. Sad, but true.

Fascisms' role in the war?
Italy attacked Ethiopia before WWII. It was payback from the past, supposedly.

Adolf Hitler?
I'm related to him. I read his book Mein Kampf and he was an evil genuis that deserved to die. He helped the German people, but he was crazy. I would go into more detail, but everyone should get the picture of this guy already

The triple axis?
Crazed mofos just for a brief glimpse of eternal glory.
What a mistake.

[Hathor Liderc]

The US had colonies in the Philipines which was right smack dab in the middle of Japan and the Dutch East Indies (which is where the Japanese would otherwise obtain their oil from)... However, the main strength of the US navy was in Pearl Harbour/Hawaii. The Japanese felt they had no other alternative but to attack -- I mean what the hell else are you going to do when you run out of the neccessities you require? It was sneaky b/s tactics on FDRs part when he should've just manned up and actually declared war instead of squeezing the balls of another nation who is allies with someone in a war you already declared yourself as isolating your nation from.

If you consider the situation, America had allies in Europe that were fighting countries like Japan. If we continued to provide the Japanese with resources, then the Allies would potentially see the US as a threat.

In the end, America was between a rock and a hard place when it came to Japan and its European allies and would be b/sing someone in the end. If you really think about it, we lose in that aspect either way, so you can't point out that America was at fault.

[ig.]

This would be an appropriate time for a Hundred Hitler Post, but I've neither the time nor the courage. I'm a naughty little boy regardless.

[Lunamaria]

The only tough position America was in was not cashing in on the war effort, and looking for an "in"

O: just curious ... looking for an in? Could you elaborate please?

[Ayu]

who ever voted that "it was a mistake"......is retarded. Think about that when you're looking back at the countless numbers who died in pearl harbor.I agree, but those people are not retarded. They just didn't look into it enough.

[Tamekichi]

It was a good idea, and necessary, I think, just for the fact that it ended the war in the Pacific. We would have had to continue island hopping, and that would have just led to more casualties in the United States Army. True, it's terrible that we had to do that. But we may have saved more lives by doing it.

[BlueShadow]

In all truth, you can't really blame America for deciding to have, at least, some part in the war. The New Deal was a complete and utter failure. It was a band-aid that, when peeled off, revealed it never helped to heal the wound anyways. America did indeed sign the lend-lease act as a means to stabalize the economy. Also true is that if America didn't cut trade with Japan at that time, I'd have no problem calling Uncle Sam a two timing basterd. As for Pearl Harbor, yes, we were expecting an attack from Japan, no, we didn't expect it there. Our defences were up in the Phillipenes, and if worse came to worse, we would get dragged into the war.
The war was, for the enitire world, and escape out of the depression yes. But I'm pretty sure that afterwords, we didn't end up conquering Japan. And later we helped bring down the Berlin Wall and raise the Iron Curtain on a few countries. So it's ignorant to say that America has absolutly no interest in doing good in the world.