Illegal Downloading of Anime - Cause and Effect

[Lilium]

I searched for threads that discuss this, but wasn't able to find any that were actually a debate that wasn't attached to someone's question in the feedback forum or something from an audition or help thread. I actually had a rather lengthy discussion about this recently so it's on my mind.

If this is a duplicate thread, feel free to lock it and point out where the discussion is already taking place. Thank you!

------

Food for thought.

I know a lot of you out there download anime. Even licensed anime that has been legally subbed or dubbed, and are availible for purchase. (Please bear in mind that downloading non-licensed anime that has been fansubbed is just as illegal as licensed, you're just less likely to get in trouble for it because the Japanese companies are less likely to go after you than the NA ones). Technically, this extends to downloading, fandubbing or subbing, and distribuding anime that you do not own (or even distributing fandubs at all).

Have you considered the following?

- The damage this is doing to the anime export industry in Japan? This part is less visible for those of us who don't live in Japan or participate in its culture or businesses.

- The damage this is doing to the mangaka or other creators of the original anime/manga in regards to licensing rights?

- The damage this does to the anime import industry, such as to prices and availibility? (I.E., anime used to be availible with several episodes per disc at the same prices we now pay for 2 or 3, if we're lucky, per DVD disc; also, why should a company license an anime that people already download and watch?)

- Do you realize that Naruto, which has a tremendous following based off of stolen episodes, has surprisingly low ratings on Cartoon Network for its popularity, because so many "fans" watched it illegally and still watch it illegaly, thus costing Cartoon Network money and making it less and less likely for them to show new anime because they don't have the money to license other titles (Like Rozen Maiden or Aa! Megami-sama! or some other interesting title that isn't all filler and drawn out battle sequences)?

- Does it bother you, on a logical or moral level, when you think about the actual effect your actions may or may not be having on the people responsible for the anime being availible to you?

- Why is it different from shoplifting an anime DVD from the store? Is it simply easier to do because you won't get caught, or think you won't get caught?

On that subject, ODEX, a company in Singapore, has already put the anime theft issue to the test, and hired an unnamed US company to track the IP's of the people downloading the anime they have the license to distribue in Singapore. They found a huge number of them, many of them school kids.

So far, this sort of drastic measure has not been turned full-force onto US residents downloading illegally, but what is going to stop ADV, Pioneer, or even Funimation from doing the same thing? You can't claim ignorance; really, now, you know better. Your mamma told you stealing is wrong. And we're already aware of YouTube's woes because people distribute anime illegally using their services, not really an issue Youtube can handle unless they make it a policy to perma-ban people since many people have been known to just open up a new account and start all over again.

I guess what I am asking is that you all take a few minutes to really think about what you're doing when you download anime. It's already so expensive, those of us who can barely make ends meet when we're flooded with bills can't exactly buy mounds of anime, but it can be accessed legally through rental channels (even through netflix, which I have, so who am I to complain?)

Anime IS availible from other venues; borrowing it from a friend, renting it from a video store or from Netflix, borrowing it from your local libary (the Timberland Regional Library system in Washington State has a surprising amount of anime, including, last I checked, the entire first 2 seasons of Sailormoon, subbed and unedited), and, gasp, through purchasing. Those of you who spend all your spare money on RPG materials or going to conventions or making costumes who say you can't afford to purchase it legally can easily set aside the hundreds of dollars that go into all of those things and instead set up an anime purchasing fund.

It's all about money management and finding good deals (and no, Id on't mean pirated anime, that isn't any more legal than downloading it).

With so many avenues for accessing anime legally, what is the continual draw toward illegal downloading of the anime?

Some general excuses I myself could think of:

- The importers are ripping us off, the dubs and subs are rediculously priced.

- You started watching Naruto/Bleach/insertcurrentobsessionhere online and if you wait for it to be dubbed, you'll get behind. You're on episode xxx whereas the dub/legal sub has only made it to episode x!! You can't wait, right?

- Moral values? What moral values? *steals candy from a baby*

Okay, yes, so that last one was a bit extreme. But realistically, is that what the allure is? It really is like stealing candy from a baby - is that simplicity and the illusion of no consequences what makes it so easy?

It also shows a grave amount of disrespect toward the creators and all of the people who put massive amounts of hard work into procuding the anime.

This also brings up the issue of fandubbing - which is a big issue for us here. A lot of us do it purely for fun, some of us have the goal of doing better jobs than the originals (such as most Sailormoon fandubs out there), and it's almost always not-for-profit. However, once it has been distributed, even if you own a legal copy of that anime yourself, the people who download and watch your fandub, which you would like people to see, are then participating in an illegal act. It's a huge issue and one we generally try not to dwell on; I mean, come on, who here HASN'T participated in a fandub or downloaded/watched a fandubbed clip or episode of something?

My own rationalization, which is really to make me feel better, is that we rarely ever see completed series or more than one clip or episode at a time. I also like to think that if an anime catches your interest from something you see here, you're more likely to find the original (hopefully in a legal manner); my interest has been drawn to Rozen Maiden because of a fandub of the opening themesong. We do each other a service here in introducing each other to new anime.

However, although we are serving each other, can it be said we are really serving the creators?

You can say this is a philisophical debate, but no matter the reasoning provided, the people who are against the illegal downlaod and distribution of anime have that to back them: the law. The legality of it. We can debate the morality of it easy enough; but is there any real excuse for the act in itself that makes it "okay"?

[Kai-chan]

I used to download a lot of anime, before my computer crashed and erased everything, but recently I've gotten deeper into thought about it, and so I decided to start by ordering The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzuimiya from the little anime stand at my mall.

Though, what about anime that has been partially licenced, and not finished, and not distributed through it's english licensor? (I.E. Tokyo Mew Mew)

[tweetychick630]

Very interesting topic, as there are so many reasons why people download anime, each highly individual, as in many cases there are multiple reasons.

Yes, I cosplay and go to conventions. In fact, one costume is from a series I own (import, before I knew it wasn't exactly the real deal, though I do own 3/4 of the domestic movies as well), two from series that just got licensed (so where do I get it legally?), and one from a series that I watched on TV (legally), own the movie (two copies in fact), and am saving up to buy the box set when they release it.

Does it bother me when I watch licensed anime on youtube? Yes, to an extent - I don't do it often, but it has happened from time to time. To me, it's like checking out a book from the library or borrowing it from a friend before I decide to buy it, because if I like it enough, I know that I will buy it.

Does it bother me when I watch non-licensed anime? Not at all - whether I believe it to be legal or not (gray area anyone?), I think it's actually helping the industry by giving the series exposure. Ouran, for instance, has a very dedicated following in North America even though it just got licensed. Maybe that's why FUNimation snatched it up - because they saw that it was made popular by fansubs. Ouran wasn't immediately snatched up, so it's not like the marketers knew it was going to be a sure thing - maybe they saw the reaction of the fans, and gauged off of that.

In fact, some companies seem to know, and play up the fact that fansubbers help make some series really popular. Death Note creative artists and the SOS Brigade were GoHs at Anime Expo this year, even though both series are extremely new (when is DN coming out? <_<). They're riding on the popularity of illegal fansubs, not legal TV watching.

It may also be an economic question, not just a moral question when it comes to the companies. What happens if somebody is a loyal buyer, but downloads illegally a few times to try things out. The company goes after them, and then said person is probably left hating the company. How willing are they going to be to buy from them after they just financially killed them? To avoid that, it seems like companies are going for fancier packaging, with extras, interviews with voice actors or the manga-ka, to positively encourage them to buy their product, not negatively.

For fandubbing, the morality (I'm not saying legality because I have no idea) lies in the intent. If it's for fun, sure, why not make a few friends online, and show a few friends online? It's easy to see that most people are not maliciously trying to damage the company or original dub, they're just pursuing a hobby that makes them happy.

*****

You bring up so many interesting points Lilium, and I'm sorry my reply was quite a bit less cohesive and coherent than yours was. It'll be interesting to see where this topic goes ^_^.

[Hathor Liderc]

Im all for downloading, to a point:

I think its important to expand one's horizons when it comes to anime. To me downloading certain eps is a nice way of doing so. However, I also believe that if a series gets liscenced here in the states, fans of that series should support the market and buy the DVDs. Hell, there are even fansubbing groups who want their viewers to support the local market with messages like "If this anime becomes liscened, support the company and buy the DVDs." I have downloaded and later bought the liscenced DVDs of series like Eureka seveN, Tenjho Tenge, and Fate/Stay Night. Quite frankly, I don't see much of a problem in what I am doing, since I buy the DVDs as they are released.

What I can't agree with are people who download anime with the excuse "I watch TV for free, so why should I buy anime?"Now people can say Im no better than those people, but unlike them, I support anime liscencing, even though I download.

In the case of Cartoon Network, there's a good reason: CN, along with many other TV stations that show anime, have the tendencies to edit and censor a LOT of their anime programs (Tenchi Muyo! is a prime example, along with many series liscenced by 4Kids) which is why a lot of viewers of the original are turned off by the "TV" version. Thankfully, anime companies like VIZ and FUNimation responded to this by releasing uncut versions of their mainstream, censored anime.

I apologize if I sound like a hipocrite, but Im a firm believer in moderation.

[MaNa Shuffle]

It's just like MP3'S. Thats illegal too.

(the legal ones don't count XD)

Do I download them? Yes when they arn't in the UK yet.

Do I wanna buy them if they come here? Yes.

I want gakuen heaven but I cant cause I don't buy imports and its not in the UK XDDD

If I'm waiting for anime to come here when I know the date, do I download? No

I'm can be hypocritial about this since I use the downloaded footage for fandubs too.

Haruhi or Lucky Star wouldnt have such a big world fanbase if the fansubs didnt exist. American Anime cons cosplayers show off the new anime which hasent come there yet.

And hell, I can watch more anime on UK TV this September =D

It hasn't effected the TV stations everywhere...Rapture TV Had high ratings cause of the anime before the program was gone.

Uk's anime fanbase is smaller than US. But it's growing...(I can only order certain manga mind you)

[Meco]

This is an interesting topic.

Yes, I do understand that it is illegal to download anime, but if I want to watch anime I have no other choice.

Here in Portugal, we have three or four anime series for sale and 10 animes on TV. Anime conventions are rare around here so it's almost impossible to buy anime in this country.

Of course, if I know that an anime that I like is going to be released soon, I'll wait and I won't download it.

But, in fact, this almost never happens, we had a channel only with anime on it, but it closed. So, for most of the times the only choice that we have here is to download.

And yes, I could import, but I need to buy other things more important than anime. I don't have enough money to buy both.

So, yes I do download anime and I do know that it is illegal.

[Lilium]

It's just like MP3'S. Thats illegal too.

(the legal ones don't count XD)

[...]

And hell, I can watch more anime on UK TV this September =D

It hasn't effected the TV stations everywhere...Rapture TV Had high ratings cause of the anime before the program was gone.

Uk's anime fanbase is smaller than US. But it's growing...(I can only order certain manga mind you)

This brings up a good point - anime has one of the strongest fanbases outside of Japan in America. And I mean by legal purchasing and viewing, not exactly downloading, which is rampant in other smaller countries that can't afford such an expensive hobbies, or in bigger countries where it's been slow to start (such as in the UK). I can actually discuss that phenomenon with my boyfriend next chance I get, he's British.... We only discussed American issues because he's naturalised so now also an American citizen and the here and now was all he cared about.


Im all for downloading, to a point:

I think its important to expand one's horizons when it comes to anime.

[...]

What I can't agree with are people who download anime with the excuse "I watch TV for free, so why should I buy anime?"

[...]

In the case of Cartoon Network, there's a good reason: CN, along with many other TV stations that show anime, have the tendencies to edit and censor a LOT of their anime programs (Tenchi Muyo! is a prime example, along with many series liscenced by 4Kids) which is why a lot of viewers of the original are turned off by the "TV" version. Thankfully, anime companies like VIZ and FUNimation responded to this by releasing uncut versions of their mainstream, censored anime.

I apologize if I sound like a hipocrite, but Im a firm believer in moderation.

You are only as much a hypocrite as the rest of us who acknowledge the legality of our activities but sway more towards doing it anyway. I download MP3's - not very many, and usually I get around to buying the CDs once I have money, but that doesn't make it any more OK. I have a large variety of anime music on my computer; US releases of soundtracks are usually kind of poor in quality, sometimes changing the song lineup, and then imports are just rediculously priced - but I bought Youko Ishida's US release "Sweets" which was pure Japanese except for a bonus English rendition of Sugar Baby Love from A Little Snow Fairy Sugar. So I have legal copies of many anime theme songs that she had performed, such as the opening to Pretear and the Snow Fairy Sugar opening.

I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge the difference between testing an anime to see if it's good, and just downloading it with the "I watch TV for free" excuse; I could see that if the anime you are downloading is on TV and you can't watch it or tape it - like the English licensed episodes of Naruto.

But that excuse is definitely a poor defense in the case of items like Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch, which I believe is licensed now and under production but I can't find more conclusive evidence than that of Tiffany Grant being cast as Hippo. O.o There is a HUGE fanbase on VAA alone - all based off of unlicensed anime being fansubbed. I'm sure it will be quite the hit when it is released, especially if they don't edit it (not much there to edit) and aim it towards the right audience. And don't butcher the music (although I'm sorry, I hate Luchia's voice, so nasaly!).


Very interesting topic, as there are so many reasons why people download anime, each highly individual, as in many cases there are multiple reasons.

Yes, I cosplay and go to conventions. In fact, one costume is from a series I own (import, before I knew it wasn't exactly the real deal, though I do own 3/4 of the domestic movies as well), two from series that just got licensed (so where do I get it legally?), and one from a series that I watched on TV (legally), own the movie (two copies in fact), and am saving up to buy the box set when they release it.

Lilium: Bear in mind I'm not arguing against cosplay, that's fine in its own right, and feel free to dress up as a character from something you don't own - but buying the anime related to your cosplay characters is a great start. And I have to admit, the copies of Lain and Witch Hunter Robin I own are probably pirated - my ex boyfriend bought BOTH series for me for Christmas while we were still together, and I can promise he didn't pay more than sixty dollars. It took me a while to realize these weren't stripped-down official releases; just pirated releases. The official WHR release is over a hundred dollars and as fancy as they could make it to make people want it.

To me, it's like checking out a book from the library or borrowing it from a friend before I decide to buy it, because if I like it enough, I know that I will buy it.

[...]

Does it bother me when I watch non-licensed anime? Not at all - whether I believe it to be legal or not (gray area anyone?), I think it's actually helping the industry by giving the series exposure.

[...]

It may also be an economic question, not just a moral question when it comes to the companies. [...]

For fandubbing, the morality (I'm not saying legality because I have no idea) lies in the intent.
[...]



You brought up a lot of good points. I can argue against the libary analogy only because the copies you get from the library were paid for by the library or a donator through legal channels and entered into the library system, so the materials WERE paid for at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if teh companies also have an agreement with the library in regards to loaning them, but I'm not sure of the extent. Anime online is many times stolen from the source; then again, many people rip anime they OWN and distribute it. So it WAS paid for at some point; it's just going against the laws that dictate how you are allowed tos hare or show it. Complex, no?

You also used a similar argument that I did in regards to this issue when it was brought up to me - there is no other way to access unlicesned anime without going to Japan and watching it there. I did point out how unfair it was to say that everyone has to spend even MORE money in getting Japan-region equipment and anime and learn Japanese just to watch a series that may never be released in the US. Because it isn't only an issue as to whether or not it will be successful; for the companies, it's almost always "what can we market off of this to supplement the DVD sales?" It's also true that we sort of have the companies in a headlock - if they start attacking us over the anime, we're going to be childish about it and say "You caught me doing something bad, fine, I'm not going to buy your anime anymore". Vicious cycle.


This is an interesting topic.

Yes, I do understand that it is illegal to download anime, but if I want to watch anime I have no other choice.

Here in Portugal, we have three or four anime series for sale and 10 animes on TV. Anime conventions are rare around here so it's almost impossible to buy anime in this country.

[...]

So, yes I do download anime and I do know that it is illegal.

It seems more likely for businesses in smaller countries like Portugal to go after downloaders, so be careful.

You also brought up a very good point; the majority of the people illegally downloading and distributing anime are actually from countries OTHER than teh US - they are from places where it just ISN'T availible, in any form, for them to legally access. Anime itself is spreading like wildfire, largely because of the ability to download online, but a lot of companies just aren't catching on.


There is such a market for online viewing, and nobody is taking it.

[...]

I think "illegal downloading" is bad -- yes. Does it stop me? No... if I want to watch a series, I'll watch a few episodes online and then get sick of waiting for the torrents to reseed, etc and I'll cave in and buy it. However, I'm not about to waste $50 per volume/few episodes of an anime I will most probably not like anyway [...]

In the end, perhaps its up to the companies to open their eyes, think outside the box, and go with the flow. [...]

Unfortunately, the only top-draws will be shit like Yugioh, Pokemon, and random-mecha/monster-series-with-10-year-old-heroes... This is always how its been. They're marketable through cards, lunch boxes, and additional merchandising.

As for Rozen Maiden/Oh My Goddess... [...]

And besides... the downloading isn't limited to english audiences -- anime is everywhere -- Italy, Spain, many South American countries, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, China, Indonesia, and so on...

If anything, countries like China and Malaysia are killing the market -- China's population alone has over 1.3 billion people, versus the population of the US and Canada which is still under 400 million. Chinese/Malaysian bootleggers offer their shows with a variety of subtitles -- I've seen some even offering French subtitles in addition to Chinese, Malaysian, and English...

I actually agree with pretty much everything you said here. Companies aren't catching on that we like the convenience of watching anime online, and we'd probably be willing to pay per episode or per series at a reduced price instead of paying for the packaging.

And yes, the Chinese bootleg market is really hurting a lot of industries, not just anime. The fans of legal anime and other items (video games, movies, etc) suffer because of the ease of purchasing pirated goods. I don't like pirated goods. They tend to be poorer in quality - I know people who had major issues with DVDs not playing correctly and finding out the anime was pirated, mass-produced and not being able to do anything about it.

Personally, I think that the companies are going to be more interested in going after individual US, Canadian, etc downloaders instead of Chinese companies - they have been fighting a losing battle against the bootleggers for years now. Every business has; the mass-production of cheaper lower-quality items and the world's willingness to buy these items is staggering..

But with the massive recalls and recent issues with China's exports, I'm wondering if that will slowly change as they lose their footing in imports? Hopefully American companies will start to shun low-quality Chinese imports because American citizens will stop buying them...!

But that's another debate for another time.

[Shintarou Inuzuka]

But that excuse is definitely a poor defense in the case of items like Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch, which I believe is licensed now and under production but I can't find more conclusive evidence than that of Tiffany Grant being cast as Hippo. O.o There is a HUGE fanbase on VAA alone - all based off of unlicensed anime being fansubbed. I'm sure it will be quite the hit when it is released, especially if they don't edit it (not much there to edit) and aim it towards the right audience. And don't butcher the music (although I'm sorry, I hate Luchia's voice, so nasaly!).


Mermaid Melody was licensed for a while; ADV ended up almost getting the license to it but decided to give up on it and unlicense it, saying that without a TV deal, it'd be a losing proposition for them. So, technically, Mermaid Melody is not licensed.

I sometimes do download anime (mainly 'cos I happen to be in a country where finding anime in English is very difficult -- anyone know of places that'll ship Region 1 English anime to Korea and Japan without shipping costing an arm and a leg? There are lots of DVDs I want to actually buy but don't know where to find ones that ship to where I live without it costing a fortune in shipping costs), but mainly unlicensed stuff. The trouble is, while many anime series do get licensed, many go unlicensed. Two series I like a lot, Mahoraba (released 2 years ago) and Mamotte Shugogetten (released a whopping 10 years ago) have not been licensed, so the only way I can see it in English is through fansubs. However, I believe that if you really like a series, there is only one real way to show that you like it -- buy the DVDs, the merchandise, anything that'll put money into the hands of the company. It's a win-win situation: you get the anime completely legally, the money goes into the hands of the R1 licensors, who in turn can use it to buy more licenses and add even more quality to their releases (such as, for example, more extras), and since only licensed series turn a profit (or so I've heard), the more licenses the R2 companies can sell, the better, and that means more anime for us, and the cycle goes on and on and on, and everyone except the "I don't wanna support the industry" people are happy, but really, if they're not willing to plunk down some money, then they're not really being a benefit, are they?

The Fushigi Yuugi effect, believe it or not, still lives on today, in a different form. (For those of you who didn't know, the Fushigi Yuugi effect is the phenomenon where a title becomes popular because of its fansub following while if it were not seen in fansub form it wouldn't have stood a chance of even getting a passing glance from R1 licensors.) For example, chances are that Haruhi Suzumiya would've never gained this rabid level of fandom had no fansubs been released, and same with Lucky☆Star. However, once a series gets licensed, I think that the fansub distribution should stop, and people should buy the DVDs if they liked the series and an uncut, subtitled release is available for purchase. There are several series I personally am waiting to plunk down my hard-earned won (and soon, yen) on myself. Chances are, if they didn't like the series, they won't go back and re-watch it. Bandai even pretty much said in their ASOS Brigade videos that they know that the series was fansubbed and they appreciate the popularity it gathered, but now that the series is out, please stop the distribution of the fansubs and buy the DVDs. (Granted, they said it in a much funnier way, but that's basically what they said.) Fansubbers should especially be respectful when they get a C&D letter because 1- they're skating on thin ice, and 2- the company decided that they would NOT sue them as a first step, and so they should be grateful that the companies chose not to sue, which was by law one of the options they had. (ADV even mentioned in their C&D letter to Pirate Bay that they preferred to not sue fans, as it causes poor public relations and undercuts the interests of everyone, but if they had to, they would.)

Another issue that comes into play is that most anime is not licensed and released at the same time as it is in Japan, and many people don't want to wait until the anime is already "old news" to watch it when others are already talking up a storm about it. Unfortunately, the only way that'd ever not be an issue is if all anime series were licensed from the minute they started airing in Japan, and that's rare. Unfortunately, since even the R2 DVDs sometimes take a few months to come out (and they're not in English), sometimes that means that fansubs are the only way to see it right away. (The same argument could be true about Japanese fans of like 24 or Lost or something like that.) This is especially troublesome in the Internet era, since now it's incredibly easy to stumble upon spoilers by accident.

Another problem is when anime companies don't provide a legal way to watch it in Japanese uncut when they license the series. Yes, I'm referring to 4Kids as well as a few series that other companies have licensed. The trouble there is that in that case, chances are the series will NEVER have a R1 uncut, subtitled version available unless another company gains the rights to all the episodes that the previous company bought. (Even One Piece still has this problem, as due to distribution license issues, FUNimation has to start in the middle of the series and doesn't have the rights to re-release the episodes 4Kids dubbed.) In that case, it's either the fansub or becoming fluent in Japanese and buying the R2 DVDs (and believe me, trying to become fluent in Japanese is no walk in the park).

As for fandubbing, I'd say it is more the intent than anything else. Personally, I don't really like the idea of posting fandubs on Youtube because even though our intent isn't to undercut sales of any anime but rather to practise a hobby and show our talents to our friends, there are lots of people who would use the fandub as a substitute for the DVD. I don't see it as wrong to fandub things just for fun and basically keep the fandubs to our little group, since we're not trying to use it as a substitute for the real thing. However, releasing it into a place where Youtube watchers are hovering like vultures waiting to watch it as a substitute to buying the DVD kinda weakens that, since even though that WASN'T our intent, it happens just the same. It's better to post it on a site that has a minimal search feature so that the odds that the "vultures" will see it and use it as a substitute to buying the DVDs are slim.

Along with that, I believe that if someone's posting episodes on YouTube, the anime company has every right to request that they be removed, and YouTube should comply. Why should Google get sued because some guy decided to upload his Inuyasha fandub collection to YouTube so that people could watch it instead of going out and getting the real deal or at least watching it on TV, where commercials bring in revenue? It may be annoying when, for example, we're using it as a reference clip or something, but they shouldn't be there in the first place. The DVDs are out!

Selling bootlegs, on the other hand, I am very much against. These "companies" actually turn a profit by copying the DVDs and marketing them to sometimes unsuspecting people who think that they're buying the real thing. Fansubbers usually do these things for free (and if they don't, they're no better than the bootleggers), but bootleggers actually distribute these things in the hopes of profiting off of them.

That said, personally, with series I like, I want to buy them. That's the only way that really makes a difference to the company to show that you're a fan of the series. (Not only that, can fansubs provide cool DVD extras? No. The bootlegs can, but they're such crappy quality ...) I have a list going of anime I want to buy, and I'm planning on going down that list and buying them. (The trouble is, a couple of them aren't even licensed yet >_< So I have to wait for those and THEN buy 'em.) With a few exceptions, I would think that many people would like to see their favourite series again and again, so it would still be worth their while to buy the DVDs -- especially since if they refuse to support the industry, that lovely win-win situation I described earlier goes right out the window.

So, basically, like it? That's great! The DVDs are available? Show your support by buying the DVDs/merchandise!

(Also, anyone know any sellers that ship R1 anime DVDs to Japan and whose shipping doesn't cost an arm and a leg?)

[Matt Cruea]

I avoid all these moral scruples by not watching anime.

[Mochan]

I don't even own a TV. I watch everything on my computer and on the internet. It is SO easy for me to find something on the internet and download it immediately. I totally agree that the anime companies should really catch on to the internet market. I'm quite shocked they haven't already.

But moving onto the actual issue of illegal downloading...I used to do it while I was in China simply because I had no other way of watching anime. Now that I'm back in the US, I don't download it anymore. But you know, you talk about anime as if it's only illegal when you download the dubbed version. It's not just the dub. The original anime companies are losing just as much money. In fact, anime is way more expensive over in Japan and downloading is quite popular.

Yes, it is wrong. Yes I do feel bad when I do it. There's no excuse for anybody to download illegally. Except for the fact that it gains exposure for the anime in a way no paid marketing could ever do.

I, personally, will buy the DVD's and CD's of anime's/music that I really enjoy. I know not everyone does that, but being able to download and watch it for free online first (or see it from here) is a huge plus when deciding whether I should buy it or not. I don't think I've ever watched a full anime series online, I've always watched an episode or two and then gone out and bought it.

I pretty much agree with what everyone else has already said...so I won't repeat it. But I don't delude myself, downloading is stealing. Plain and simple. Yes, I do feel bad when I do it. But hey, who knows, maybe if this continues, the licensing companies will wise up and create the option of viewing anime online through their company website.

[Hathor Liderc]

You are only as much a hypocrite as the rest of us who acknowledge the legality of our activities but sway more towards doing it anyway. I download MP3's - not very many, and usually I get around to buying the CDs once I have money, but that doesn't make it any more OK. I have a large variety of anime music on my computer; US releases of soundtracks are usually kind of poor in quality, sometimes changing the song lineup, and then imports are just rediculously priced - but I bought Youko Ishida's US release "Sweets" which was pure Japanese except for a bonus English rendition of Sugar Baby Love from A Little Snow Fairy Sugar. So I have legal copies of many anime theme songs that she had performed, such as the opening to Pretear and the Snow Fairy Sugar opening.

To be perfectly honest, it all depends on the company responsible for publishing the US version of the soundtrack. Geneon is an example of one that tries not to tamper with the orignal material, other than translating the Japanese text in the booklet/case. In the case of imported music, even though a lot of them tend to be overpriced, there are a few vendors that I've visited on several occasions because they sold imports at reasonable prices. Besides, I'd rather shell out the extra money for an official soundtrack than buy a $10 bootleg by Ever Anime.


I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge the difference between testing an anime to see if it's good, and just downloading it with the "I watch TV for free" excuse; I could see that if the anime you are downloading is on TV and you can't watch it or tape it - like the English licensed episodes of Naruto.

Im not a big fan of Naruto, so I wouldn't watch it either way. If I was, then I certainly wouldnt watch it on Cartoon Network as I would rather save up and buy the Uncut Season 1 boxed set, so I can see the series in its entirety. CN's Adult Swim is a different story altogether, as the anime they show on that block is not completely butchered but slightly watered down to so that it's both tolorable and enjoyable for the fans.


But that excuse is definitely a poor defense in the case of items like Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch, which I believe is licensed now and under production but I can't find more conclusive evidence than that of Tiffany Grant being cast as Hippo. O.o There is a HUGE fanbase on VAA alone - all based off of unlicensed anime being fansubbed. I'm sure it will be quite the hit when it is released, especially if they don't edit it (not much there to edit) and aim it towards the right audience. And don't butcher the music (although I'm sorry, I hate Luchia's voice, so nasaly!).

Keep in mind though, that series will most likely not on mainstream cable. Therefore it doesnt succumb to the mass censorship like so many others. On the plus side, it may end up like Suzumiya Haruhi, and recommended by word of mouth to friends, who then tell their friends and so on. Because of that, word spreads like wildfire among anime fans and is the reason why a lot of these once fansubbed series become so popular.

[Lilium]

I avoid all these moral scruples by not watching anime.

This is another option XD


To be perfectly honest, it all depends on the company responsible for publishing the US version of the soundtrack. Geneon is an example of one that tries not to tamper with the orignal material, other than translating the Japanese text in the booklet/case. In the case of imported music, even though a lot of them tend to be overpriced, there are a few vendors that I've visited on several occasions because they sold imports at reasonable prices. Besides, I'd rather shell out the extra money for an official soundtrack than buy a $10 bootleg by Ever Anime.



Im not a big fan of Naruto, so I wouldn't watch it either way. If I was, then I certainly wouldnt watch it on Cartoon Network as I would rather save up and buy the Uncut Season 1 boxed set, so I can see the series in its entirety. CN's Adult Swim is a different story altogether, as the anime they show on that block is not completely butchered but slightly watered down to so that it's both tolorable and enjoyable for the fans.



Keep in mind though, that series will most likely not on mainstream cable. Therefore it doesnt succumb to the mass censorship like so many others. On the plus side, it may end up like Suzumiya Haruhi, and recommended by word of mouth to friends, who then tell their friends and so on. Because of that, word spreads like wildfire among anime fans and is the reason why a lot of these once fansubbed series become so popular.

It was cleared up earlier (and I actually found out earlier today) that ADV did have the rights but let them drop since no TV stations wanted it. Craziness, it would have been so popular. But I guess big companies know what we want better than we do, right?

Right.

I agree with the overall feeling that the licensing companies need to start offering online download or streaming services. If I can watch Heroes online for free and legally through NBC, then dammit, I should be able to watch Cowboy Bebop that way too!!

[Hathor Liderc]

I agree with the overall feeling that the licensing companies need to start offering online download or streaming services. If I can watch Heroes online for free and legally through NBC, then dammit, I should be able to watch Cowboy Bebop that way too!!

Actually, that sounds like a good idea! Even cartoon network has anime streaming services, which introduces different series to viewers.

[ig.]

Why limit the discussion to anime? Why not go all the way and open this up this debate to all forms of intellectual property theft? I'd have to word to say about the topic at that point.

Besides, it seems a damn shame to leave out all the tapes I've copied from friends over the years, all the tv shows and pay-per-views I put on VHS, and not to mention all the games I've had the good chance to sample just because righteous indignation has been sprouted over some subpar torrenter webhole having a hard-on for the latest middle-rate, school life, highly androngynous, never-going-to-be-released-in-the-US-wah-wah-so-I'm-entitled horseshit.

[martialmichael126]

Allow me to offer my view on the subject, which is on a moral level, rather than a legal level ('cause let's be honest, in this situation, nobody gives a crap about how legal it is)

I went to Otakon, and in a few of the industry panels and workshops they discussed this subject. Illegal downloads, fandubs, and even fansubs are seriously killing the industry. BangZoom! for example is now doing less anime and more video games because it's harder to pirate, and thus more profitable. Even the Japanese know this. But as far as I remember, they didn't go into any further detail.

When they mentioned fandubs that really surprised me. Personally I think most fandubs are fine. Full series fandubs, yeah those do hurt the industry, though to be honest how many of these actually make it through the full series? I really don't see a problem with dubbing a scene or two though. If anything, that's just another way that the series gets free promotion! Same for parodies/abridged series.

With fansubs I'm on the fence. I support them, especially if the series hasn't been dubbed yet, and there's no official sub. But once the series gets dubbed, why not just by the DVDs and listen to the Japanese track with the subtitles on? I honestly believe that the dubbing companies do a better job of translating than a lot of the fans (though I'm not saying this is the case with all the translations).

However, I even though I'm strongly against pirating anime, I know that some people can't afford to buy all the awesome animes out there. Our economy is rough, money is hard to come by, and anime is expensive! Should the economy get better, I'm sure more people will buy the DVDs. After all, the DVDs have features you don't easily get online, not to mention the DVD's are of a much higher quality, and they don't take up space on your hard drive (unless you back it up there)

[halfmillennium]

I don't do it. Although the selection of anime in the country is pretty limited and the vast majority of it's foreign-dubbed anime (American or Canadian), I don't have a problem with the limited selection because I'm not really an anime fan. If I were, I'd look to importing it from other parts of the world.