Draft in the USA?

[Moose]

With the debate of draft floating around, I decided to bring it to the good ol' VAA. I'll start off with the obligatory questions to get discussion going.

Do you approve of the draft? How do you think the draft will effect the war we are in currentely? If you were chosen by the draft, would you comply?

[Matt Cruea]

As I said two years ago when this topic was even partly relevant, there will never be a draft.

Lo and behold, there wasn't one.

I don't see what debate there is to be had.

[Matt Alan]

The draft motion was brought up by the same senator who brought it back up two years ago. Its a distraction, nothing more.

[fairuza]

I personally think it's pointless.:/

[Providence]

Although I'm in favor of mandatory enlistment into the armed corps upon graduation from high school (there are simply a great deal of social rewards from such a program), fighting on the front lines is quite different.

Let's face it; Kerry was at least partly right with his joke--it's largely the poor and disenfranchised that enlist in the army (obviously there are many exceptions to this). Even if a draft were instituted, the majority of people that people like us, most likely middle or upper classers, that would actually know anyone who were enlisted is quite low. In the previous draft, there were exceptions barring people pursuing higher education or holding grievous injuries from being drafted. Of course, this led to "shoot yourself in the foot" parties and the mass migrations to Canada.

Given that the United States has a very liberal-minded people with regards to the army, it's quite obvious that there's simply no way in hell the draft could ever be reinstituted. If they did, the political opposition would run so high that whatever reigning party during its institution would simply be shut out of the next elections. It's political suicide.

[Amby Leigh]

As long as there are still people out there in those red states that think that we belong in this war and will gladly throw themselves into a pointless battles, there will be no draft. And there is no shortage of the later mentions idiots so... I fear no draft.

If there WAS a draft however... I'm also not worried cus I know I'd never pass a psychological evaluation :-D

[Providence]

As long as there are still people out there in those red states that think that we belong in this war and will gladly throw themselves into a pointless battles, there will be no draft. And there is no shortage of the later mentions idiots so... I fear no draft.

If there WAS a draft however... I'm also not worried cus I know I'd never pass a psychological evaluation :-D

Haha, don't underestimate the power of psychology =P
I diagnose you with V-code V65.2 Malingering =P

[Chinomi]

Oh Canada.

[Hikuro]

I doubt there will be a draft......the debate has existed for a draft for over 5 years......and nothing has happened.....not too mention I don't think the american people would stand for a draft, and there's more then enough military personal.

[Yoda117]

Let's face it; Kerry was at least partly right with his joke--it's largely the poor and disenfranchised that enlist in the army (obviously there are many exceptions to this)..



you actually thought that was a joke, eh?

Kerry can't help himself from insulting the people who volunteer to serve and has never missed an opportunity to do so. It's a shame really, but that's par for the course with him.

As for the comment itself, I look at the numbers of soldiers who join that have college educations or better (prior to enlistment) and am rather surprised by the high percentage. It's not a red/blue thing, which is is a comment I often hear and has to be one of the absolute dumbest forms of logic I've ever heard.

Do I think there will be a draft? No. To be honest, no one, especially not the military wants forced service. Why is this? Because they've found that they get a better group overall when it is done on a volunteer basis.

What gets me, is that after hearing about the evils of the Bush administration and how they were going to institute the draft, which was a major Dem talking point during the 2004 election, that it was the same group of people who brought it to the floor to be voted on. Yes, I know what point you are trying to make, but the point you made with me is that you're more interested in grandstanding than in dealing with the problems of this country. Congrats...?

The fact that we keep voting for these people (regardless of party affiliation) truly frightens me sometimes.

[UltraRob]

Charles Rangel's attempt to re-instate the Draft (http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny15_rangel/CBRStatementDraft05262005.html) is not a distraction at all, it's a very valid attempt to draw attention to the point that politicians (Red, Blue, Green, Purple and Plaid) are perfectly willing to send other people's children to fight in Iraq, just not their own. I doubt he even believes it will pass, but that makes it a safe thing to do.

He simply thinks the people of America would be a lot more politically aware and thoughtful were their own children to have a chance of serving overseas should there be a war. Which is probably true.

And also why it will never happen.

Rob

[Moose]

He simply thinks the people of America would be a lot more politically aware and thoughtful were their own children to have a chance of serving overseas should there be a war. Which is probably true.

And also why it will never happen.

I agree completely with that. A lot of people now could not really care about the war, but if they were in danger of being enlisted, then maybe they would pay a little more attention to politics, maybe the number of voters would go up.

The president would also have to think more before throwing us into a war. Instead of throwing in volunteers into war, he would have to also consider the thousands of civilians whose lives would be interupted. Maybe we'd be out of this war sooner. Then again, a lot of people are cowards, and Bush doesn't want his approval ratings to go negative, so it probably won't happen. But I believe if America was actually invaded by another country, and there were attacks on our homefront, then there would definitely be a draft.

[Matt Cruea]

Would we need a draft if there were attacks on American soil? Or some kind of invasion? You'd think the citizens just kind of become instant self-defense militia.

The idea of a draft is old hat. The fear of a draft is an unwarranted one.

[Tom]

Likely? Not yet. Impossible? No. Should you be surprised if it happens? No.

Anything could happen (here, there, everywhere), despite the current mass disapproval for conscription. If it did happen, would the government be able to enforce it? That remains to be seen.

Just never underestimate the ability of shit to hit the fan and everything going to hell. Militarily, we're not doing well in a not so good place with not enough people doing it.

Drafts have never been popular, especially when the possibilities of one begin to lurk around corners, but they happen anyway.

[Kei]

Its a terrifying thing to me, forcing the citizens to possible die to protect a country...thats disgusting I'm sorry.

They're human beings, not pieces for the governments little checkers game.


But I must agree with Chinomi right now: "Oh Canada."

[Sabaku-no-Chibi-san]

Hmmn, I actually think the draft could help cause the end of this supposed war (Although it's not really a war). If a draft is reinstated, people will be awfully upset with it. They won't want to be drafted, and many who can't be drafted wouldn't want those who will be drafted to go to war. So then people will complain and perhaps even start to leave the country. Then, in the long run, politicians may see "Oh noes. War = Draft. Draft = Unhappy People. Therefore, War = Unhappy People" and use some basic logic.

However, the chances of that or a draft are quite slim. And even though I'm female, I'm moving to Germany or Australia if the draft ever comes back.

[Matt Cruea]

Likely? Not yet. Impossible? No. Should you be surprised if it happens? No.

Tom, I love you, but that's stupid. I will bet you ten billion dollars there will be no draft in the next ten years. During this Iraqi conflict or otherwise. I will give you my firstborn son as a slave if you want. The idea of a draft is apalling to both sides of the political spectrum, except for the most hardline rights, which are few and far in between.


If it did happen, would the government be able to enforce it? That remains to be seen.

I don't think it does. We've seen people leave the country because an election didn't go the way they wanted it. Drafts being idiotic aside, the majority of our nation is a bunch of pussies and would run at first mention of a draft bill passing, most likely myself included.


Just never underestimate the ability of shit to hit the fan and everything going to hell.

That's a rather fearful attitude to have, Tom. I encourage you to not lose hope for humanity in your old age.


Militarily, we're not doing well in a not so good place with not enough people doing it.

Eh, we're doin' alright.


Drafts have never been popular, especially when the possibilities of one begin to lurk around corners, but they happen anyway.

In America, it's happened TWICE. Twice in over 200 years. I dunno, I think we're doing alright. And the last time it happened was probably the closest we've been to major political upheavel since the Revolutionary War. Not to mention, we have lots and lots of pretty missiles that explode real nice.

Conscription is no longer relevant to American fears. To think it is, well, you might as well start naming some people you suspect to be dirty pinkos while you're at it.

[Chris Nagy]

The numbers necessary in Congress to reinstate a draft would require a massive catastrophe to take place on American soil, and it would obviously need to be one of a military nature (one or more countries attacking strategic targets or heavily populated cities.)

The problem with that scenario, though, is that we are more likely to carpet-bomb the offending countries out of existence than we are likely to conscript civilians and outfit them. We have the technology to avoid the need for a draft (better weapons) and the cost of outfitting, training, and paying a soldier is too prohibitive to draft a portion of the population.

[UltraRob]

Tom, I love you, but that's stupid. I will bet you ten billion dollars there will be no draft in the next ten years. During this Iraqi conflict or otherwise. I will give you my firstborn son as a slave if you want. The idea of a draft is apalling to both sides of the political spectrum, except for the most hardline rights, which are few and far in between.

Just to interrupt here, I don't think he was saying there would be a draft in the next ten years, per se, he was saying that a draft is still theoretically possible at some future point in American history. Which, it is. And, don't kid yourself about how stable your society is, 30 years ago the American gov't was worried about the country falling apart and calling out the national guard against students and race riots.

All it will take is a big enough famine, water shortages or some other crisis looming on the horizon and things will get screwy fast. The crisis doesn't even need to happen before the more authoritarian aspects of the government play their hand, just the threat of a crisis is enough to tip the balance.

Then again, I live in a part of the world where 2006 held about 4 or 5 military coups against civillian governments and several Juntas are currently in power. (Myanmar and North Korea, to be precise.) It's real, it happens, and it can happen, even in the US. I just pray it doesn't.

Rob

[Tom]

Tom, I love you, but that's stupid. I will bet you ten billion dollars there will be no draft in the next ten years. During this Iraqi conflict or otherwise. I will give you my firstborn son as a slave if you want. The idea of a draft is apalling to both sides of the political spectrum, except for the most hardline rights, which are few and far in between.

I don't think it does. We've seen people leave the country because an election didn't go the way they wanted it. Drafts being idiotic aside, the majority of our nation is a bunch of pussies and would run at first mention of a draft bill passing, most likely myself included.

That's a rather fearful attitude to have, Tom. I encourage you to not lose hope for humanity in your old age.

Eh, we're doin' alright.

In America, it's happened TWICE. Twice in over 200 years. I dunno, I think we're doing alright. And the last time it happened was probably the closest we've been to major political upheavel since the Revolutionary War. Not to mention, we have lots and lots of pretty missiles that explode real nice.

Conscription is no longer relevant to American fears. To think it is, well, you might as well start naming some people you suspect to be dirty pinkos while you're at it.

Actually, it's mostly the lefties that are tossing the draft idea around. The idea is that we send all of these poor and underprivileged men and women into the field so they can go to college and support their families while the rich kids sit back and do nothing. A draft would "level the playing field."

The fact is, militarily, we are NOT doing alright. The occupation of Iraq is hardly successful and has been on a downward spiral since the war started, with no attempts to correct the mistakes. Even Rumsfeld knew that we were fucking up and said sayonara as soon as the elections were over before he had to answer some long overdue questions. Bush would have gotten rid of him anyway to save face and has since claimed that we "need a new perspective" toward the war--meanwhile, we're running out of troops to send to Iraq--yet, what does his administration still want to do? Send more troops!

The conservative American dream of a glorious country with a quick, LIGHT, efficient army has gone to shit ever since we've gone to Iraq. If we are to stay there, we need more people if we are to stabilize the situation, but the number of new volunteers has dwindled significantly and with fewer and fewer people signing up. This administration has made it very clear that bringing troops home is NOT one of their options. So, where are we going to get these troops?

Just because it's been 30 years since our last draft doesn't make it impossible or out of sight--it is not a forgotten concept. The Selective Service obtains and trains new draft board members every year for the classification of draftees--the country has been ready and willing to begin a draft and send hoards of young men and women for service in the military, if the need ever arose, for decades now.

People leaving the country because of conscription is not a valid argument to make against a draft. Fleeing citizens is not enough to prevent a draft from happening, especially if there ever comes a time when a draft needs to happen. People run EVERY TIME there is a draft and that hasn't stopped previous ones from happening. Nobody ever wants a draft and to think that it won't happen just because it's not popular is naive. If it has to be done, it has to be done.

Truth be told, right now, a draft probably won't happen--but we can't predict the future. What will our military look like six months from now? What will the situation in Iraq be like six months from now? Will our homeland be attacked six months from now? What will the administration be like six months from now? Nobody knows.

Shit has been hitting the fan ever since people began walking the Earth. It is not fearful to understand that this is not utopia. I don't sit around at home constantly worrying about how "oh my god, there might be a draft tomorrow!" But I AM realistic about it. The longer we go without dramatic turns of events occurring, the more likely they are to happen. That's simple history.

[ig.]

...All this nonsense talk about the draft makes me miss the comfort of the Mutually Assured Destruction scenario.

[Queen Anime 99]

Dude, Kerry botched a joke. That was announced, like, a long time ago.

you actually thought that was a joke, eh?

Kerry can't help himself from insulting the people who volunteer to serve and has never missed an opportunity to do so. It's a shame really, but that's par for the course with him.

As for the comment itself, I look at the numbers of soldiers who join that have college educations or better (prior to enlistment) and am rather surprised by the high percentage. It's not a red/blue thing, which is is a comment I often hear and has to be one of the absolute dumbest forms of logic I've ever heard.

Do I think there will be a draft? No. To be honest, no one, especially not the military wants forced service. Why is this? Because they've found that they get a better group overall when it is done on a volunteer basis.

What gets me, is that after hearing about the evils of the Bush administration and how they were going to institute the draft, which was a major Dem talking point during the 2004 election, that it was the same group of people who brought it to the floor to be voted on. Yes, I know what point you are trying to make, but the point you made with me is that you're more interested in grandstanding than in dealing with the problems of this country. Congrats...?

The fact that we keep voting for these people (regardless of party affiliation) truly frightens me sometimes.