Is this wrong?

[Amped2Flash]

www.allwhitedating.com

I thought it was racist the minute I saw it, but maybe that's because I'm black.

[ClymAngus]

It's incredibly narrow minded. Also, it's a lot easier for boarder line racists to convince themselves that their views are reasonable if they only meet people with whom they agree. Saves on self reflection if you never have to face the grubbier parts of ya psyche.

It's kind of a weird, self segregation for bigots.

[Kevin Gillis]

For some reason I can't access the site, but from the name of the site I can already tell that it is indeed very racist. Some people just don't know when to give up and get over the fact that every race is equal and the white man was not the first beings on the planet

[Matt Cruea]

I disagree that this is racist. It's no more racist than a site for "Urban Dating." You'll find many sites out there that are centered on white issues, black issues, oriental issues, etc. While I can't actually see the site due to what Gillis mentioned, the mere idea of it is not, intrinsically, racist.

I mean, you ask the majority of human beings and, if they're COMPLETELY honest with you, they'll be able to tell you that they are most likely attracted more to one race than another.

[Nuko]

I disagree that this is racist. It's no more racist than a site for "Urban Dating." You'll find many sites out there that are centered on white issues, black issues, oriental issues, etc. While I can't actually see the site due to what Gillis mentioned, the mere idea of it is not, intrinsically, racist.

I mean, you ask the majority of human beings and, if they're COMPLETELY honest with you, they'll be able to tell you that they are most likely attracted more to one race than another.

i quite agree i mean im dark skinned i dont really find this racist

[shadowsvoice]

I just find it funny. To each his own I say.

[Shizuko]

I don't find it racist,there are dating sites that are for blacks,orientals,etc..doesin't make it racist

[ig.]

So the site is dedicated dating designed to agressively preserve the white race. Could go either way, really.

Also SA rox wooyah

[Windy*]

I suppose it just removes the trouble of filtering out every race but caucasian on your match site searches, or choosing your racial preferences on your dating profile.

Racist? Not really. I don't think it's fair to assume everyone on the site is a bigot, either. But yes, narrow. And if that's how people choose to date, so be it. *shrugs* Indeed, everyone has their own preferences and knows to whom they are most attracted; and if I were to search based on physical attraction alone, I would have to narrow it down a bit, too, just to get results I would consider most favorable. :)

But it's also true like people probably seek each other out - and, as has been previously mentioned, there are dating sites of all kind that are as narrow as this. Black, Muslim, Christian, Gay/Lesbian... whatever.

So what's the difference? Of course, when it's strictly white, it's racism, right? Always is.

[ClymAngus]

Well at the end of the day, sites like these are for the shallow. Who make their major criteria when selecting a mate all about the porcelain and little to do with the fibre of the fabric.

Forget about the derma, go for the brain. Always your best bet. If you like the brain, the rest of it makes little odds.

[Matt Cruea]

Well at the end of the day, sites like these are for the shallow.

You have just met the Internet.

[yukie]

Most dating sites have "race" options anyway.

[ClymAngus]

Most dating sites have "race" options anyway.

Well, I was never really 100% convinced by the whole Internet dating thing anyway. It's kind of like "Hello, do you want to leave me in a ditch somewhere on a bleak moor? If so, why not give me an e-mail?"

I suppose they at least get a small point score for being honest.

Shallow internet? Did you know that initially area networks were used to safe guard the launch of nukes? Good old DARPA. From destruction on a biblical scale to "all white dating". That's quite a spectacular slide when you think about it.

[Tom]

Just because the site is preferential rather than hateful doesn't mean it isn't racist. All asian/black/hispanic/whatever dating sites are also racist. If you judge or do anything based on race, you are being racist. It doesn't have to be offensive to be racist.

We shouldn't trick ourselves into making double standards just because some things are cultural norms. The fact of the matter is that a LOT of what people do or say is racist. A lot of it is societal or cultural and isn't really hurting anyone, but that doesn't mean it isn't racist. When someone uses their prejudice to harm someone else or maliciously exclude someone from something they have earned or reasonably deserved purely on the basis of race, that's when it becomes a problem.

This isn't utopia and it never will be--as long as multiple races exist, there will be racism. It's just up to individuals whether or not to be asses.

On the topic of the site, I wouldn't say it's wrong, per se.. a bit on the silly side, but that's just because I don't have a racial preference when it comes to romance. In the end, they're not really hurting you, so whatever gets them off, oh well. It's not like you'd want to date them either, anyway. :P

[subtle_s]

I don't think it is "racist" but I really don't like some of the phrases it uses."100% free 100% white" kind of thing. Almost incinuating if you know what I mean. I wouldn't worry too much though as I doubt anyone on this board is using it. I would just smile and go, "Oh those silly, silly people"

[Steven Mane]

I don't think it's intentionally racist. It's more of a thing for people who feel comfortable dating just white people. Same with other people who only feel comfortable dating their own races. Some black people only want to date black people, some Asian people only want to date Asian people. The list goes on. It's not meant to be racist, it's only for comfort issues.

Some families don't want another race in their blood because of "purity" issues. Doesn't matter what race they are. You'll find them in every race. Is it racist? Depends on who you ask.

[ClymAngus]

Some families don't want another race in their blood because of "purity" issues.

Yes, but those families also tend to have no chins and webbing.

[Steven Mane]

Yes, but those families also tend to have no chins and webbing.

:-P

Yes, they tend to.

But if I may bring up a very personal reference: my own family. And I'll tell you why.

My cousin had a child. The father was black. My family shunned my cousin. Then as time went on, they grew more accepting. And the little girl is a gorgeous little tyke, I have to say.

But the fact remains: my family wanted to keep the bloodline "pure". The only ones who were accepting at first was, you guessed it, my household.

It takes time to accept it. Plain and simple. And that's all that can be said. Someone on the outside might look at families and say, "Wow. They're racist." Racist is a strong word. Bigoted, maybe. But then again, how many people on here can say with absolute certainty that they're 100% not racist. You say it now, but can Tom say that if a white person entered his family that he would be completely accepting of it? Or can you, Clym, say 100% that if an Asian person enters your family tree, you'd be completely alright?

This website is simply for comfort reasons and simply that. We can actually look at an even more racist topic than this: scholarships. We've seen scholarships for African-Americans only, Hispanics only. Those aren't seen as racist. But if you bring a scholarship up for just white people, it's racist? If it's endorsed by the KKK it is. But what about someone who just feels white people are getting screwed? A lot of controversy happens. The guy is forced to open the doors and is called "racist", "narrow-minded". Then what about the NAACP? What do you call that?

[Matt Cruea]

Just because the site is preferential rather than hateful doesn't mean it isn't racist. All asian/black/hispanic/whatever dating sites are also racist. If you judge or do anything based on race, you are being racist. It doesn't have to be offensive to be racist.

We shouldn't trick ourselves into making double standards just because some things are cultural norms. The fact of the matter is that a LOT of what people do or say is racist. A lot of it is societal or cultural and isn't really hurting anyone, but that doesn't mean it isn't racist. When someone uses their prejudice to harm someone else or maliciously exclude someone from something they have earned or reasonably deserved purely on the basis of race, that's when it becomes a problem.

This isn't utopia and it never will be--as long as multiple races exist, there will be racism. It's just up to individuals whether or not to be asses.


Wow, Tom, that was a whole lotta typin' just for you to end up being wrong.

It's not racism, (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism) but rather segregationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/segregation).

Certainly the American Heritage definition 2 could be used, but it would not suffice as discrimination as a way of discerning something without bias is an archaic definition.

Either way, I don't really care about this site. It's not wrong, but even if it was "KKK RALLY DATING SERVICE ONLINE," who cares? You can't fight a worldview.

[StarvingWriter]

Well, I was never really 100% convinced by the whole Internet dating thing anyway. It's kind of like "Hello, do you want to leave me in a ditch somewhere on a bleak moor? If so, why not give me an e-mail?"


I'm sorry, that was just so funny! :-o Sadly it's also true, for a lot of cases anyway. Adults appear to have a better idea of how to filter out the sickos, but teenagers/preteens seem to be getting hit awfuly hard these days, although they don't necessarily use dating services now that I think about it.

At any rate, I guess I'm on the fence here. I can see how it would appear to be racist, and it is sorta mean...but it reminds me of those stupid 'clubs' that elementary kids have. You know the ones like "Only MY friends are in this secret club" Or "Only BOYS can be a member of this club" or "You MUST HAVE pigtails to be a part of our club!" (Those were very bad examples, but you know what I mean) I guess what I'm saying is that it's petty.

[ClymAngus]

Or can you, Clym, say 100% that if an Asian person enters your family tree, you'd be completely alright?

Ah, Ah , AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!, Sorry I just finished rewatching batman forever (I use lower case for a title for a reason, and if anyone wishes to axe murder Joel and video it I will pay, seriously, that's PAL not NTSC :) ). I'm sure you underestand.. Off the point but I'll drag the conversation back on as this is an interesting diversion. There is a suble difference between acceptance and active prevention.

Your reply is based on the topic of acceptance. The website however preaches active prevention. The one cannot be used to defend the principles of the other.

[Mat Growcott]

Matt Cruea has said everything worth saying on this subject, i think.

A quick lookie around the site produced two discoveries (which you've probaly all seen :D). The first was a poll in which people were invited to vote on whether Jack Straw was right in asking the women to remove there veils. 49 people had voted for yes, 47 had voted for no. Atleast at the time of this post. I dunno if that really means anything in the way of whether the people of the site are racist or not, but meh, i wanna make this post look full :D.

The second thing i found was a link to there sister site. www.allblackdating.com (http://www.allblackdating.com)

[Steven Mane]

Your reply is based on the topic of acceptance. The website however preaches active prevention. The one cannot be used to defend the principles of the other.

Not to sound like a jerk, but why not?

By the way, both Matts (or Matt and Mat...) are right. Wow.

[A-W-D]

http://voiceactingalliance.com/board/vaanew/headerrt.png
OK so wtf is a voice actor?

And may i also say that this website is racist.. where's the fkn white paper cut out man eh?? (just kidding) but you see where I'm coming from?

as for www.allwhitedating.com (http://www.allwhitedating.com) some well thought out posts here. I have set up a forum for anyone who fancies debating the rights or wrongs of an all white dating site.

[Shintarou Inuzuka]

It's wrong if sites catering only to members of other races are wrong as well. In a way, though, it does seem to be exclusive. There are members of other races who find whites attractive, but they wouldn't be able to sign up since they're not white whereas on web sites that allow all races, they could just check that they're only interested in whites. I suppose that it's different from, for example, a dating service based on interest, as those web sites would make the matches more compatible, and chances are that no one who has no interest in such things would look on a web site specifically devoted to it (e.g. if there was an anime fan dating service, an anime hater would be unlikely to sign up anyway, as chances are they wouldn't be SPECIFICALLY looking for an anime fan). It would also be slightly different from one catering only to members of a specific sexual orientation (again, as long as all the bases are covered), as in that case the wrong gender would completely disqualify someone from consideration -- however, the fact that there are some people who are bisexual would also put this one into the "questionable at best" category, as they would be screwed out of finding mates in sites that only allow straight or gay people, and in the case of bisexuals, neither gender is disqualified, so it'd only be okay if it was based on the system of members of one gender who were interested in members of a gender (e.g. men interested in women, etc.), as then the playing field would not be narrowed in either case, and again, only people who are interested in the target gender would sign up unless they're out to do something bad. However, sites that narrow the playing field by excluding people who might be interested from membership I'd see as wrong, and this falls under it since even though there are people who are interested in certain races more than others as far as attraction, they are not always a member of that race (in fact, in some cases, they might not even be attracted to members of their own race at all). However, other web sites that only allow members of a certain race to join are equally as bad as allwhitedating.com. Being catered only to whites doesn't make it any more or less wrong than a site catered only to blacks, Asians, etc.

Also, what about people who are mixed races? Wouldn't they be pretty much disqualified from joining ANY of those web sites?

[ClymAngus]

Not to sound like a jerk, but why not?


Because it doesn't do the job of defending the website. Your talking about being active in the examination of racist inclinations. What am I feeling and why am I feeling it? The sort of healthy examination that all humans do when a situation chances. This site side steps this completely by just saying no. This is why I personally dislike it. Others may see more nobility in it's motive. Some may even join up.

Segregation doesn't force people to examine their differances, it just sweeps the whole matter swiftly under the carpet and pretends that it doesn't exist.

[Azure]

http://voiceactingalliance.com/board/vaanew/headerrt.png
OK so wtf is a voice actor?

And may i also say that this website is racist.. where's the fkn white paper cut out man eh?? (just kidding) but you see where I'm coming from?


Those are silhouettes.:confused:

[A-W-D]

Those are silhouettes.:confused:

er.. probably just a fireworks png that looks like a silhouette

[Tom]

Wow, Tom, that was a whole lotta typin' just for you to end up being wrong.

It's not racism, (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism) but rather segregationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/segregation).

Certainly the American Heritage definition 2 could be used, but it would not suffice as discrimination as a way of discerning something without bias is an archaic definition.

Either way, I don't really care about this site. It's not wrong, but even if it was "KKK RALLY DATING SERVICE ONLINE," who cares? You can't fight a worldview.

Well, if you really want to get technical, it is not "segregationism", it is elective separation. Either way, both systems use exclusivity and discrimination based on race and are, therefore, racist. Besides, to say that racial segregation isn't racism just because it has its own term is semantical and offensive. :P

[Steven Mane]

Because it doesn't do the job of defending the website. Your talking about being active in the examination of racist inclinations. What am I feeling and why am I feeling it? The sort of healthy examination that all humans do when a situation chances. This site side steps this completely by just saying no. This is why I personally dislike it. Others may see more nobility in it's motive. Some may even join up.

Segregation doesn't force people to examine their differences, it just sweeps the whole matter swiftly under the carpet and pretends that it doesn't exist.

I'm beginning to understand your point of view now. However, there is something I wanted to address, because both you and Tom are saying the same thing, so this next response is for the both of you.

Segregation is discrimination, not technically racism. If the same company caters to two different races in the exact same way, it's the "separate, but equal" policy. However, as the Civil Rights Movement showed back in the 70s with Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, it's racism if one race is getting the short end of the stick.

In this company's case, I don't see it that way, especially if what Mat Growcott says is true.

[Tom]

I'm beginning to understand your point of view now. However, there is something I wanted to address, because both you and Tom are saying the same thing, so this next response is for the both of you.

Segregation is discrimination, not technically racism. If the same company caters to two different races in the exact same way, it's the "separate, but equal" policy. However, as the Civil Rights Movement showed back in the 70s with Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, it's racism if one race is getting the short end of the stick.

In this company's case, I don't see it that way, especially if what Mat Growcott says is true.

Discrimination of any kind based on race is racism. The use of such discrimination to short-end one of another race is a classic sense of the word, but just because we're not talking about slavery doesn't mean it isn't racism.

If I said "white people can't do math", that would be racist. Am I impeding upon a white person's freedom? No. But it's still racially prejudicial.

As I said before, it doesn't have to be offensive to be racism. Many ethnic customs, beliefs and attitudes toward other races are pretty racist, even when it doesn't serve the purpose of short-ending someone else--but these things are cultural and aren't generally seen as hostile by an outsider. There's nothing wrong with these customs, but they are racist. The term encompasses a broad spectrum of meaning.

Furthermore, seeking to only date another white person isn't really a problem, but this site seeks to create a community exclusive from any other race. That's racial discrimination. Frankly, I see no real reason for the site to exist, other than to be racially exclusive, because when it comes right down to it, all you have to do is click the "white" box on any dating site out there (most of which have white users as the majority) and--boom--you instantly have only white people as search results.

[ClymAngus]

It's all a bit mediocre though isn't it? I mean it's all white dating, not great dating or crap dating. Just alwight. Sorry bad pun. :)

[Steven Mane]

Discrimination of any kind based on race is racism. The use of such discrimination to short-end one of another race is a classic sense of the word, but just because we're not talking about slavery doesn't mean it isn't racism.

If I said "white people can't do math", that would be racist. Am I impeding upon a white person's freedom? No. But it's still racially prejudicial.

As I said before, it doesn't have to be offensive to be racism. Many ethnic customs, beliefs and attitudes toward other races are pretty racist, even when it doesn't serve the purpose of short-ending someone else--but these things are cultural and aren't generally seen as hostile by an outsider. There's nothing wrong with these customs, but they are racist. The term encompasses a broad spectrum of meaning.


And if I said "All Asian people know kung-fu, all Asian women are fantastic lovers, and every Asian person has intellect beyond the gods", that would also be racist. Or would it?

Stereotyping isn't technically racist. It's the world view on how each other race sees that race. White people are hillbillies
(thank you very much, George W. Bush...), black people like hip-hop and kill each other, Arab people are terrorists, Asians know everything, etc. Again, it's stereotyping, not racism. And they only exist because it's the most common thing we see. We know it's not completely true, but I'm going to ask, how many people ask you, Tom, for the answer to a difficult question that you have no clue of the answer? And I will say this, you are perpetuating the stereotype in the fact that you are indeed vastly intelligent and deep.

So because you are Asian and perpetuating the stereotype, I will ask you this question: Why do Asian people get the GOOD stereotype? :-P

[ClymAngus]

Interesting but off the point. There is the term "positive discrimination". Which just about covers your argument.

There isn't anything really positively discriminatory about this sight however it's needlessly and pointlessly blatant. That said agreeing with Matt, at what point did we ever expect the net to uphold any idea of taste and deciency?

Some people see "viable way of finding my arian bride and perpetuating my mighty gene stock."

Others might see "another dating service."

I see "goose stepping morons all marching in time towards oblivion."

I'm perfectly at piece with my reading of the situation. Others are of course, entitled to theirs.

[Queen Anime 99]

:-P

Yes, they tend to.

But if I may bring up a very personal reference: my own family. And I'll tell you why.

My cousin had a child. The father was black. My family shunned my cousin. Then as time went on, they grew more accepting. And the little girl is a gorgeous little tyke, I have to say.

But the fact remains: my family wanted to keep the bloodline "pure". The only ones who were accepting at first was, you guessed it, my household.

It takes time to accept it. Plain and simple. And that's all that can be said. Someone on the outside might look at families and say, "Wow. They're racist." Racist is a strong word. Bigoted, maybe. But then again, how many people on here can say with absolute certainty that they're 100% not racist. You say it now, but can Tom say that if a white person entered his family that he would be completely accepting of it? Or can you, Clym, say 100% that if an Asian person enters your family tree, you'd be completely alright?

This website is simply for comfort reasons and simply that. We can actually look at an even more racist topic than this: scholarships. We've seen scholarships for African-Americans only, Hispanics only. Those aren't seen as racist. But if you bring a scholarship up for just white people, it's racist? If it's endorsed by the KKK it is. But what about someone who just feels white people are getting screwed? A lot of controversy happens. The guy is forced to open the doors and is called "racist", "narrow-minded". Then what about the NAACP? What do you call that?
Hey. Like the story about your family finally accepting your cousin and her family. But, I have to make some comments. The reason there are African American and Hispanic scholarships is because these groups tend to be disadvantaged. The number of minorities attending college is EXTREMELY low and many times this is because college is too expensive. Come one, man. You know that. Also, white people can't argue that they are being screwed or that society is against them. White people own the majority of things in America! White people control America! And the NAACP is not racist because its for the advancement of minority people who have been and still are being treated like crap. If our society didn't have problems with minorities, we wouldn't have to have NAACP. Or PFLAG (Parents and Families of Lesbians and Gays...or something ^_^). Or NOW (National Organization for Women). You gotta think about stuff like that.

[Amped2Flash]

I suppose it just removes the trouble of filtering out every race but caucasian on your match site searches, or choosing your racial preferences on your dating profile.

Racist? Not really. I don't think it's fair to assume everyone on the site is a bigot, either. But yes, narrow. And if that's how people choose to date, so be it. *shrugs* Indeed, everyone has their own preferences and knows to whom they are most attracted; and if I were to search based on physical attraction alone, I would have to narrow it down a bit, too, just to get results I would consider most favorable. :)

But it's also true like people probably seek each other out - and, as has been previously mentioned, there are dating sites of all kind that are as narrow as this. Black, Muslim, Christian, Gay/Lesbian... whatever.

So what's the difference? Of course, when it's strictly white, it's racism, right? Always is.

No. I'd think the same about an all black dating website... when I started off the thread. It's just that this caught my attention because it was the awful site of the day on SomethingAwful.com

But anyways, I agree with you guys, the title itself isn't racist. It's racist because of the white supremacy stuff they were saying in the forums that were wrong. It's okay to have attraction preferences.

[Queen Anime 99]

And if I said "All Asian people know kung-fu, all Asian women are fantastic lovers, and every Asian person has intellect beyond the gods", that would also be racist. Or would it?

Stereotyping isn't technically racist. It's the world view on how each other race sees that race. White people are hillbillies
(thank you very much, George W. Bush...), black people like hip-hop and kill each other, Arab people are terrorists, Asians know everything, etc. Again, it's stereotyping, not racism. And they only exist because it's the most common thing we see. We know it's not completely true, but I'm going to ask, how many people ask you, Tom, for the answer to a difficult question that you have no clue of the answer? And I will say this, you are perpetuating the stereotype in the fact that you are indeed vastly intelligent and deep.

So because you are Asian and perpetuating the stereotype, I will ask you this question: Why do Asian people get the GOOD stereotype? :-P
You are right about there being a difference between stereotyping and racism. However, stereotyping can lead to racism. Believing that Black people are dumb, lazy, and violent may lead to to the believe that Black people are inferior, hence the racism. Oh, and not all Asian stereotypes are good.

Some Bad Asian stereotypes

1. The sexless Asian man (Notice in the rare amount of American films starring Asian men, especially action films, the star hardly ever ends with the girl, or if they do, never kiss her. However, the Caucasian male star always ends up with the girl and almost always kisses her.)
2. China Doll. The submissive, hypersexual Asian woman who will do anything her lover tells her to do. Usually dies.
3. Dragon Lady. Seductive Asian woman who is untrustworthy.

[Queen Anime 99]

So what's the difference? Of course, when it's strictly white, it's racism, right? Always is.

No, when it's strictly white, it's not always racism. I'm African American and while I see the site as being rather odd, if a White person only wants to date other White people, I guess that site makes the search easier? :sweat I think the problem is that every time many of us (Minorities and Majorities alike) hear anything like "all white" or "white only," we have flashbacks about the 1960's and earlier, the KKK, and the white supremacy movement. Usually, when someone says "all white," it's NOT a good thing. ^_^ However, it's only a dating site, so whatever.

[Moose]

I think it really just makes the search easier for those searching for someone. It's like those all jewish, all christian, all gay/lesbian dating sites. It just makes it easier to narrow down. To many, attraction is a major part of the whole dating process. To some, if they cannot have a physical attraction, they cannot establish an emotional attachment. Some people are not attracted to fat people, so they don't date fat people. Some people are not attracted to black people, so they don't date black people. Sure, there are probably a few racist, KKK people in there, but I'm sure some if not most are just fine.

[Steven Mane]

Hey. Like the story about your family finally accepting your cousin and her family. But, I have to make some comments. The reason there are African American and Hispanic scholarships is because these groups tend to be disadvantaged. The number of minorities attending college is EXTREMELY low and many times this is because college is too expensive. Come one, man. You know that. Also, white people can't argue that they are being screwed or that society is against them. White people own the majority of things in America! White people control America! And the NAACP is not racist because its for the advancement of minority people who have been and still are being treated like crap. If our society didn't have problems with minorities, we wouldn't have to have NAACP. Or PFLAG (Parents and Families of Lesbians and Gays...or something ^_^). Or NOW (National Organization for Women). You gotta think about stuff like that.

Okay. I'll give you that. But what would you say if there was a Caucasian scholarship? People would yell and scream "racism". I'm more disadvantaged than you think. Which is one white person stereotype: People think we're up the wazoo with money. Bullshit. My mom worked her ass off for years and we still are technically homeless.

[Mallie]

I dont find it racist either. There are lots of organizations that are only for specific races. One example would be college frats and sororities, there are lots of all-black frats and sororities and there are other dating sites with a preferable race. I dont think it makes it racist though..

[Mallie]

Okay. I'll give you that. But what would you say if there was a Caucasian scholarship? People would yell and scream "racism". I'm more disadvantaged than you think. Which is one white person stereotype: People think we're up the wazoo with money. Bullshit. My mom worked her ass off for years and we still are technically homeless.

I have mixed feelings about giving scholarships to just black people. It's not that I don't think they need it because everybody needs scholarship money, the cost for education is just way to freakin high. But I think that if they are gonna give a lot of scholarship money to black/hispanic people and give them a lot of opportunities to go to college, they should do the same for white people. Because there is poverty with white people too, not just blacks. We each struggle with the same things in our everyday lives whether people want to believe it or not. And blacks/hispanics aren't the only ones who get treated like crap, white people get treated like crap as well too. Hell, EVERYBODY gets treated like crap. I know that blacks probably had one of the worst times than any of us had as far as their history goes, but that's history. Things are different today. Yeah, there are still some people out there who are racist just like in the old days but whites get prejudiced against as well. And I don't really find it fair for people to get special treatment whenever all men are supposed to be equal. I know so many people who wanted to attend college but couldnt because they couldn't find enough scholarships to grant them money. This doesn't just go for white people either, but for all races. I can't even tell you how many scholarships that I could have recieved, that I was eligible for as far as grades and everything, but I couldn't apply because I wasn't black.

[Queen Anime 99]

Redneck Genius:

That's a really good question. ^_^ Because I do think about poor Caucasian American people and I do think what if they had a Caucasian scholarship. Urg. I don't know. I can't really answer now. But I will say that, um, Black people tend to be far more disadvantaged than White people. And there are less Black people attending college than White people (My college is like 90% White people ^_^). So Black scholarships is a way to get more African Americans to attend college. I guess a scholarship for Caucasian people would be okay. But, it'd have to be like a scholarship aimed at disadvantaged Caucasians. ::shrugs::


Mallie:

I agree. I have mixed feelings, too. I understand what you are saying. However, Black people tend to be far more disadvantaged than White people (as a whole, of course) and there is an extremely low number of African Americans attending college (I don't even want to talk about Hispanic and American Indian/Native American. The number of these groups attending college is disturbingly low). The point of African American scholarships is to get more African Americans attending college. But, yeah. Argh. This is a tricky subject. ^_^ I think there should be a scholarship for disadvantaged White students. Arg. Tricky. Tricky. However, I have noticed that for some scholarships that are sponsored by African Americans and aimed at African Americans, you don't actually have to be African American to apply for them. ^_^ That's all I can say. I don't really know how to explain myself. This is such a tricky subject. Sorry if I sound high. :D

[Steven Mane]

Don't worry, Queenie. Everyone but Matt Cruea loves you. :-P

[Mat Growcott]

Just out of interest, since this seems a appropriate place to post this, what's everybodies thoughts on the racist things said by the guy from Seinfeld?

[Amped2Flash]

Just out of interest, since this seems a appropriate place to post this, what's everybodies thoughts on the racist things said by the guy from Seinfeld?

I was disgusted by it. When somebody lo9ses their cool, they usually say what their thoughts are. If Kramer actaully thinks like that, I don't think I'll be able to watch Seinfield again. I look at him in another light now.

Racist dude.

[Mallie]

I'm not sure I heard about that. What all did he say?

[Mat Growcott]

What Kramer Said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AVfSBJQHA&mode=related&search=)

For those who didn't hear about it. Here is a recording of what happened.

I've gotta be honest though, while what he did was bad it is also understandable, and since he apoligised i think people are making way too much of a big deal out of it. This is, sadly, the risk of doing any sort of improvisational comedy, your voice can move way quickier than your head and you look up at a bunch of black audience members who are pissing you off big style and the first thing you'll notice about them is that they're black. Remember, they'd been heckling and talking through his show all night.

Unfortunatly, the audience members gave as good as they got. The fact that they weren't in Seinfeld means that they have the ability to sue for racial slurs and he is left in the water.

[ig.]

What's more disturbing than Richards' diatribe is the notion that people are finding ways to quietly condone what amounts to an blatant act of racism.

[ClymAngus]

Interesting, disturbing but it profers several interllectual questions.

[ig.]

Regardless, a sad sad sad sad state of affairs. I shouldn't be so surprised, what with having the sheeny curse put on me.

[ClymAngus]

Interesting though, wider questions. I see many examples of people taking the piss out of their own race. Hence I can say "I'm part of a bunch of colonal inbreeding British slave traders who haven't gotten off their world wide domination trip yet, even though when we could actually kick ass (which was about 200 years ago) we kicked everyone from here to hell and back"

I say a word about other races, ah dead man walking, as I would EXPECT to be. I'm not condoning, but if you dared say that about me. Well just don't be in my country when you do mate. :)

Race humor best kept to your own.

[Amped2Flash]

What's more disturbing than Richards' diatribe is the notion that people are finding ways to quietly condone what amounts to an blatant act of racism.


I agree.


Interesting though, wider questions. I see many examples of people taking the piss out of their own race. Hence I can say "I'm part of a bunch of colonal inbreeding British slave traders who haven't gotten off their world wide domination trip yet, even though when we could actually kick ass (which was about 200 years ago) we kicked everyone from here to hell and back"

I say a word about other races, ah dead man walking, as I would EXPECT to be. I'm not condoning, but if you dared say that about me. Well just don't be in my country when you do mate. :)

Race humor best kept to your own.

But Clym, is it fair that you can tell a race joke but not take one?

Some people accept race humor and say you can't give if you can't take. That's fine. I accept race humor too. But there's a point where race humor isn't humor anymore, but just an insight to how racist the joker is. Take, for example, Michael Kramer. He went too far. That wasn't funny. I don't care how much the hecklers heckled, if he was racist enough too see only the skin on those hecklers faces, and if he was racist enough to yell old school nigger insults, then he's BLATANTLY RACIST.

I know that some people won't really care, know about or feel that strongly about racism until it's physical. This is because they have never experienced racism themselves. I understand that. But that was blatant. That was bloody blatant, dudes.

[Mat Growcott]

If i were to answer your post Amped i would just be repeating myself. But i honestly doubt Kramer is more racist then 90% of the population of the world. Like i said, it's the risk of improvisational comedy. I did a simlar thing last year, i'd got into it and ended up saying something quite sexist. i got out of it (Unlike Kramer) and luckily the show went on.

Are you now going to turn around and say i'm sexist? Probaly. I'm not, but i would understand if somebody would say that. She was acting in a bad way towards me and using her gender to cushion herself. Unfortunatley, improv being the way it is, i let my mouth run away with me. Fortunatley, apart from this one girl the rest of the people on stage were very professional and got me out of a tight corner with the audience hardly noticing my slip up.

As for it not being funny, everything is funny it just has to be heard in the right way by the right people. Hence all those charming comments on youtube -_-

[Queen Anime 99]

I've taking a drama class and we did have to do improvisational exercises (with comical results many times :D), and I can understand him slipping up. However, he should have apologized profusely RIGHT after he said the n-word. But, no. He CONTINUED to talk about black people and use the n-word even after he had cooled down. A slip-up can happen, but he went WAY too far and I believe that he might in fact be racist. I'm glad he apologized, though. But he shouldn't have taken that long to apologize.

If i were to answer your post Amped i would just be repeating myself. But i honestly doubt Kramer is more racist then 90% of the population of the world. Like i said, it's the risk of improvisational comedy. I did a simlar thing last year, i'd got into it and ended up saying something quite sexist. i got out of it (Unlike Kramer) and luckily the show went on.

Are you now going to turn around and say i'm sexist? Probaly. I'm not, but i would understand if somebody would say that. She was acting in a bad way towards me and using her gender to cushion herself. Unfortunatley, improv being the way it is, i let my mouth run away with me. Fortunatley, apart from this one girl the rest of the people on stage were very professional and got me out of a tight corner with the audience hardly noticing my slip up.

As for it not being funny, everything is funny it just has to be heard in the right way by the right people. Hence all those charming comments on youtube -_-

[Mat Growcott]

He might have done had the guy he was talking to not turned around and have been racist right back. It is obvious that he shocked alot of people in the audience, but the first thing he said (Can't remember exactly what it was, sorry) was actually quite well recieved if memory serves me. It got quite a sizeable laugh for what it was being said.

The style of comedy he does, which is quite energetikc and loud and...m'yeah, from what i can see there, plus the laugh probaly made him carry on. He took it too far, he said himself. I mean, he's probaly gonna have lost quite a lot of work for this ANYWAY, if he was racist he wouldn't have apoligised in my opinion, unless he was deeply upset and sorry about what happened, what would be the point? I doubt it'll get him any work back, and people will still spit at him in the streets.

[ClymAngus]

I agree.
But Clym, is it fair that you can tell a race joke but not take one?

I went over the top to prove a point. The point is, is a joke still racist if it's self deprocating? It all comes down to perceived attack. From a person considered to be within any sub-section of social strata (race, class, wealth, sex, interest or ownership) they are less likely to be perceived to be attacking. It is illogical to attack yourself so they can naturally get away with more. On the other hand if the same thing is said by someone outside the group then they are much more likely to generate a defensive response.



Some people accept race humor and say you can't give if you can't take. That's fine. I accept race humor too. But there's a point where race humor isn't humor anymore, but just an insight to how racist the joker is. Take, for example, Michael Kramer. He went too far. That wasn't funny. I don't care how much the hecklers heckled, if he was racist enough too see only the skin on those hecklers faces, and if he was racist enough to yell old school nigger insults, then he's BLATANTLY RACIST.

At the very least he is very foolish, at the VERY least. Your right from what I heard it's probable he has another agenda. Chris Rock he ain't, that's for sure and he should bloody well know that already. Racist or no he badly misjudged the situation to a near terminal level.



I know that some people won't really care, know about or feel that strongly about racism until it's physical. This is because they have never experienced racism themselves. I understand that. But that was blatant. That was bloody blatant, dudes.

Some social groups we choose, some we are born to. If attacked each and every one of us will defend, that is only natural. :)

[Amped2Flash]

I went over the top to prove a point. The point is, is a joke still racist if it's self deprocating? It all comes down to perceived attack. From a person considered to be within any sub-section of social strata (race, class, wealth, sex, interest or ownership) they are less likely to be perceived to be attacking. It is illogical to attack yourself so they can naturally get away with more. On the other hand if the same thing is said by someone outside the group then they are much more likely to generate a defensive response.

I actually think that there's more than just one person in most minorities, Clym, so if you're putting yourself down, the others might be a little offended. But you're not being serious, so, naturally people let you get away with it. In comedy, people often turn to stereotypes. But as soon as you see someone seriously putting forward these ignorant stereotypes and put-downs, like you said, people will become defensive. But other people would be able to see offence, and even feel offended themselves, because it could've easily been them.

I still think it's wrong to make fun of other races or even your own race outside of the comedy mode, where people would just laugh at how crass and ignorant it is.


At the very least he is very foolish, at the VERY least. Your right from what I heard it's probable he has another agenda. Chris Rock he ain't, that's for sure and he should bloody well know that already. Racist or no he badly misjudged the situation to a near terminal level.



Some social groups we choose, some we are born to. If attacked each and every one of us will defend, that is only natural. :)

I agree...


If i were to answer your post Amped i would just be repeating myself. But i honestly doubt Kramer is more racist then 90% of the population of the world. Like i said, it's the risk of improvisational comedy. I did a simlar thing last year, i'd got into it and ended up saying something quite sexist. i got out of it (Unlike Kramer) and luckily the show went on.


I will partially use Clym's post to answer yours.


At the very least he is very foolish, at the VERY least. Your right from what I heard it's probable he has another agenda. Chris Rock he ain't, that's for sure and he should bloody well know that already. Racist or no he badly misjudged the situation to a near terminal level.



Some social groups we choose, some we are born to. If attacked each and every one of us will defend, that is only natural. :)

Kramer went far too far to have gotten out of it, Matt. WAY TOO FAR. Like I said, if you watch him over again, he didn't even think before he spoke. In situations like that, people don't think. They just say the worst think that they know, and have secretly felt. Kramer feels that way. And when a black person pisses him off, he thinks of that immediatley. He think 50 years ago, his people would've had them hung on a rope and he would've beaten their asses. (This isn't word for word, but this is, in a nutshell what he said) I analysed that sentence for a bit, and I now think he believes that no black person should make him angry, because as far as he's concerned, his people could've continued with the slave trade, but they didn't, and blacks should be grateful. C'mon now, that's textbook racism. As plain as it'll get.

:neutral: WTF? Now, you guys might think I'm looking too deep, and not seeing it for what it is, but think about it... if that's what pops into his mind when a black person heckles him, isn't he racist?


Are you now going to turn around and say i'm sexist? Probaly. I'm not, but i would understand if somebody would say that. She was acting in a bad way towards me and using her gender to cushion herself. Unfortunatley, improv being the way it is, i let my mouth run away with me. Fortunatley, apart from this one girl the rest of the people on stage were very professional and got me out of a tight corner with the audience hardly noticing my slip up.

As for it not being funny, everything is funny it just has to be heard in the right way by the right people. Hence all those charming comments on youtube -_-

Yeah.

[Mat Growcott]

Doing any type of improvisation, especially during standup, is not like chess. You can't think 4 moves ahead.

Now is your chance, amped, to prove your comedy chops, since obviously you feel you could have handled it better than Kramer did. (Sorry if this comes accross pretentious or pedantic, I just read that sentance back). Out of interest, you see a group of white/black/brown/red people (delete as appropriate), they keep interupting your act, they are really pissing you off. You've told them to shut the fuck up lots. You can see that it's ruining the evening for you and your audience.

Bear in mind that you don't know these people. Bare in mind that you've tried the old "Do i come and bother you while your flipping burgers" line. Kramer's style seems to be quite angry anyhew.

What would you have said Amped?


Kramer went far too far to have gotten out of it, Matt. WAY TOO FAR. Like I said, if you watch him over again, he didn't even think before he spoke. In situations like that, people don't think. They just say the worst think that they know, and have secretly felt. Kramer feels that way. And when a black person pisses him off, he thinks of that immediatley. He think 50 years ago, his people would've had them hung on a rope and he would've beaten their asses. (This isn't word for word, but this is, in a nutshell what he said) I analysed that sentence for a bit, and I now think he believes that no black person should make him angry, because as far as he's concerned, his people could've continued with the slave trade, but they didn't, and blacks should be grateful. C'mon now, that's textbook racism. As plain as it'll get.

Welcome to the world that is improvisational stand-up comedy. If you can't say something that is funny without thinking about it then you're not cut out for it. His first line is genuinely funny. I know you'll probaly think i'm racist to. Whatever. That's your decision. It's a funny line. The audience clap and laugh at what is said, the same audience that 20 seconds later are walking out.

Although we're all allowed to have our opinions on what he meant, i personally don't think that is what he meant. He mentions what would have happened 50 years ago, he then goes onto shout "It's a nigger, it's a nigger" and whatever the hell else he said. As far as i'm concerned thats the obvious place mentally to go from that first line. It's acting like people would have done at the time should a black person have been doing what the group were doing. That's not saying that what he said was right. It wasn't. I'm just trying to logically explain it from another comedians point of view.

I just wanna cut right in here to say that the video there begins quite sharpish. Obviously (Since someone actually got out their mobile to film it) there was more that led up to the video. Anything could have happened. Most likely (and i'm saying this because it's racially influenced) the guy in the audience said something racist to him. That would at least explain the seemingly random racist attack.

That said, we can move on. He does actually begin to get back. He does almost stop when he says "see?! This shocks you...it shocks you...". It does seem like he'd get on with the set from that point. What was said was said and it would never have got any better, but it could have stopped from getting worse. He gets interupted again "That was uncalled for". True, but a smart person would have shut the hell up if he was really offended. Richards then explains, without racism, WHY he said what he said. All is at peace with the world...sort of...

There's then a discrepancy with the film where it jumps implying something has been cut out. Between "Is this too much for you to handle" and "They're going to arrest me for calling a black man a nigger" something obviously happens. Although go knows what. We'd need a transcript of the show to find out what was said, and i can't be arsed to search :D.

The heckler then turns round and says something racist in return. So after telling Richards that being racist was uncalled for he turns around and is racist in return. Hypocrisy? You could easily turn around and say "But...according to the video he was only doing it back." So? If it was uncalled for, why drop the the other persons level?

"Cracker-ass...(etc)". Well, obvious statement in return. It's basically what i explained in the last paragraph about falling to the other persons level.

The heckler then insults his career. Saying something stupid like "You only have Seinfeld"...Sorry, but that is just a really dumb comment. Someone who only has Seifeld could probaly never have to work again.

This whole post has proven i have too much time on my hands at the moment.

[ClymAngus]

Right well this is quickly turning a bit broo ha ha so I'm just going to answer my little bit :)


I actually think that there's more than just one person in most minorities, Clym,

And where did I say that I thought there wasn't? No need to be snarky. :)



so if you're putting yourself down, the others might be a little offended.

Possible but they're not going to label a member of their own group a racist for it are they? It's laughable.



But you're not being serious, so, naturally people let you get away with it.


Naturally get away with it? Really? That's all in the interpretation. Whos doing the talking and whos doing the listening.



In comedy, people often turn to stereotypes. But as soon as you see someone seriously putting forward these ignorant stereotypes and put-downs, like you said, people will become defensive. But other people would be able to see offence, and even feel offended themselves, because it could've easily been them.

Probably is, one things for sure. He need to take his copy of "The Grand Dragons comedic guide of whitty comebacks" and throw it away. It sure ain't working with his audience, another stunt like that and every liberal on the planet will want the man on a spit.



I still think it's wrong to make fun of other races or even your own race outside of the comedy mode, where people would just laugh at how crass and ignorant it is.

And you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. I don't see we're disagreeing violently here, some of the find details regarding the level of intent, you think more I think less (I can't help it. It's my forgiving nature). That said I always find it amazing how quickly comedy can become tragedy sometimes.

[Queen Anime 99]

No. He wouldn't have stopped. He continued way too far even before the black guy called him a cracker. That was wrong, too, but that man felt on the edge and he felt he needed to fight back (I'm not condoning his actions, either, but I understand why the black guy said what he said). I really don't think what the other guy said mattered anymore because Kramer was on a roll.

I don't agree that the audience received it well. I even heard a few people saying "Oh my god." I think the audience laughed because they weren't sure what to do in that situation. It certainly wasn't heartfelt laughter. And what do you mean if he was racist he wouldn't have apologized? He's a celebrity! He HAS to apologize. People EXPECT an apology. He would automatically apologize whether he is racist or not.


He might have done had the guy he was talking to not turned around and have been racist right back. It is obvious that he shocked alot of people in the audience, but the first thing he said (Can't remember exactly what it was, sorry) was actually quite well recieved if memory serves me. It got quite a sizeable laugh for what it was being said.

The style of comedy he does, which is quite energetikc and loud and...m'yeah, from what i can see there, plus the laugh probaly made him carry on. He took it too far, he said himself. I mean, he's probaly gonna have lost quite a lot of work for this ANYWAY, if he was racist he wouldn't have apoligised in my opinion, unless he was deeply upset and sorry about what happened, what would be the point? I doubt it'll get him any work back, and people will still spit at him in the streets.

[Mat Growcott]

He'd stopped saying anything racist at the point i mentioned. He stopped, there was a cut out of the film and then he said something along the lines of "I'm going to be arrested for calling a black man a nigger". That's debatable whether that could be classed as racism...i guess it is, just for use of the word., but since it's more of a general statement, rather than directing it at anybody its rather like saying "What is the meaning of the word nigger". Depends how you look at it. Could be either. And so the next time he says anything racist is after he's called a fucking cracker ass motherfucker. And then it could be seen as parody more than anything.

The audience didn't say "oh my god" till he shouted "it's a nigger, look a nigger". His first line recieved mild laugher on average. One guy nearly wet himself. Scattered applause. This isn't really debatable. It's right there on camera. I'm either right or wrong, and it could be either :D. I'm pretty sure that i'm right on this count though. I'll have to have a listen tomorrow, i'm trying to keep down so i don't wake anyone up :D.


And what do you mean if he was racist he wouldn't have apologized? He's a celebrity! He HAS to apologize. People EXPECT an apology. He would automatically apologize whether he is racist or not.

I think what i meant there was he didn't have to apoligise. This is going to damage his career whether he apoligises or not. Nobody will care that he apoligised. Casting directors and the like will only care that he said those things. Chances are he will struggle to do another stand up tour again. If he was really racist, if he really thought he was above black people he didn't have to make a public apology, whether it is expected or not. He's still being taken to court by the *coughs* "victims". They said his public apology wasn't "good enough" and only good hard cash will heal there broken spirits.

Add to this the fact that a body language expert examined the apology video and said that she was 100% he meant every word.

I just wanna remind people here that i'm not defending what he did. What he did was wrong and WAS uncalled for. He took it too far and for that he is being punished. However, i'm trying to understand, and possibly help others understand how he could do this and not be racist, which i doubt very much whether he is.

[Queen Anime 99]

Please check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Richards

Kramer started the incident without provocation. I've also read that he is getting counseling in order to control his anger and figure out why he said what he said, so that's good.

I just watched the video again. And he didn't stop saying anything racist if he made the comment about whether they can arrest him for calling a black man a nigger. That's racist and completely uncalled for whether it was "general" or not. Come one! That's not "the end" if he says something like that. Yes, I'll admit, he did pause. And the other guy called him cracker-ass (Also, racist and unneccessary, I admit) right after his pause. Okay? That meant he would stop being a nutbag?

Regardless, he should have, I don't know, apologized right after he uttered his first comment. And every single thing Kramer said was racist. It's NOT debateable. He occasionally tried to make it seem as though he was "joking" and making "social commentary". That's it. He wasn't "parodying" anything. All he was doing was trying to make himself look like he was just "playing" the entire time when he should have just ended his rant and apologized then and there. He had a problem with the "hecklers" (I use this term loosely because it appears that Kramer is the one who started everything according to many reports), but he chose to use their race as a weapon against them.

The victims (no need for coughing. They ARE victims. They were, I don't know, verbally attacked in a public place!), I've read, want him to apologize directly to them which makes sense. Yes, the body language expert said he was 100% sincere. Good. Did the victims see the body language expert? Maybe they didn't. Or maybe they want him to apologize directly to them because the apology is more powerful and heartfelt that way. I do think the money thing is kind of silly, though.

Again, I can't judge him and say that he is racist because I don't know him. I understand what you are trying to do though. However, Kramer most certainly has racist thoughts. It's really hard to argue that he is not racist when he was the one who not only started everything, but continued on and on (even before the pause and stuff) without stopping and apologizing.


He'd stopped saying anything racist at the point i mentioned. He stopped, there was a cut out of the film and then he said something along the lines of "I'm going to be arrested for calling a black man a nigger". That's debatable whether that could be classed as racism...i guess it is, just for use of the word., but since it's more of a general statement, rather than directing it at anybody its rather like saying "What is the meaning of the word nigger". Depends how you look at it. Could be either. And so the next time he says anything racist is after he's called a fucking cracker ass motherfucker. And then it could be seen as parody more than anything.

The audience didn't say "oh my god" till he shouted "it's a nigger, look a nigger". His first line recieved mild laugher on average. One guy nearly wet himself. Scattered applause. This isn't really debatable. It's right there on camera. I'm either right or wrong, and it could be either :D. I'm pretty sure that i'm right on this count though. I'll have to have a listen tomorrow, i'm trying to keep down so i don't wake anyone up :D.



I think what i meant there was he didn't have to apoligise. This is going to damage his career whether he apoligises or not. Nobody will care that he apoligised. Casting directors and the like will only care that he said those things. Chances are he will struggle to do another stand up tour again. If he was really racist, if he really thought he was above black people he didn't have to make a public apology, whether it is expected or not. He's still being taken to court by the *coughs* "victims". They said his public apology wasn't "good enough" and only good hard cash will heal there broken spirits.

Add to this the fact that a body language expert examined the apology video and said that she was 100% he meant every word.

I just wanna remind people here that i'm not defending what he did. What he did was wrong and WAS uncalled for. He took it too far and for that he is being punished. However, i'm trying to understand, and possibly help others understand how he could do this and not be racist, which i doubt very much whether he is.

[Queen Anime 99]

Welcome to the world of improvisational comedy? I've been in drama classes and we've done improv. At times, stupid things were uttered, but no one EVER went that FAR. I know you're not, but it sounds like you're trying to justify his actions. We know that people screw up, but he went WAY too far. He continued on and on and on. One slip up? Okay. Continued slip ups? Not okay at all. No one in improvisational comedy ever goes that far. Even when you made your sexist slip-up, you didn't continue on and on like Kramer did.

Yes, I got the "It's a nigger" thing. However, that was not the obvious mental place to go from his previous comment. The obvious mental place to go would have been "Oh S$%^! I'm sorry!" That's what I would have done if I said anything like that.

Kramer started the entire incident. (see the above link)

Kramer's "This shocks you" comment was OBVIOUSLY used to try to cover up his outbursts and make it seem as though he isn't racist. It wouldn't have stopped. Yes, he get's interrupted again (see above link. interruption was not intentional until kramer's first racist uttering and then was intentional) of course? Why? I don't know? Perhaps because he was saying COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY RACIST crap? The smart person would have shut up? Wow, let's blame the victim. I don't see anything wrong with that guy saying what Kramer said was uncalled for because it WAS. And, hopefully, Kramer was going to stop.

I agree that the dude shouldn't have sunk to Kramer's level. Um, what does the dude's comments about Kramer's career have to do with ANYTHING? And, um, Kramer probably DOES have to work again. Does anyone even know how much Kramer got Which is why he was probably doing stand-up instead of relaxing at home swimming in a pile of money.




Welcome to the world that is improvisational stand-up comedy. If you can't say something that is funny without thinking about it then you're not cut out for it. His first line is genuinely funny. I know you'll probaly think i'm racist to. Whatever. That's your decision. It's a funny line. The audience clap and laugh at what is said, the same audience that 20 seconds later are walking out.

Although we're all allowed to have our opinions on what he meant, i personally don't think that is what he meant. He mentions what would have happened 50 years ago, he then goes onto shout "It's a nigger, it's a nigger" and whatever the hell else he said. As far as i'm concerned thats the obvious place mentally to go from that first line. It's acting like people would have done at the time should a black person have been doing what the group were doing. That's not saying that what he said was right. It wasn't. I'm just trying to logically explain it from another comedians point of view.

I just wanna cut right in here to say that the video there begins quite sharpish. Obviously (Since someone actually got out their mobile to film it) there was more that led up to the video. Anything could have happened. Most likely (and i'm saying this because it's racially influenced) the guy in the audience said something racist to him. That would at least explain the seemingly random racist attack.

That said, we can move on. He does actually begin to get back. He does almost stop when he says "see?! This shocks you...it shocks you...". It does seem like he'd get on with the set from that point. What was said was said and it would never have got any better, but it could have stopped from getting worse. He gets interupted again "That was uncalled for". True, but a smart person would have shut the hell up if he was really offended. Richards then explains, without racism, WHY he said what he said. All is at peace with the world...sort of...

The heckler then turns round and says something racist in return. So after telling Richards that being racist was uncalled for he turns around and is racist in return. Hypocrisy? You could easily turn around and say "But...according to the video he was only doing it back." So? If it was uncalled for, why drop the the other persons level?

"Cracker-ass...(etc)". Well, obvious statement in return. It's basically what i explained in the last paragraph about falling to the other persons level.

The heckler then insults his career. Saying something stupid like "You only have Seinfeld"...Sorry, but that is just a really dumb comment. Someone who only has Seifeld could probaly never have to work again.

This whole post has proven i have too much time on my hands at the moment.

[Lilium]

I want to ask something.

If the black man called Kramer a cracker first, should Kramer have the right to demand a personal and public apology and demand money?

EDIT: Yes, hypothetical and I'm aware that the word "cracker" wasn't said first.

[Queen Anime 99]

Yes, Kramer should have the right to demand a private apology (The black man only wanted a private apology, by the way. Not a public one.), but not money (I agree that Kramer should issue the man a private apology, but I don't agree that he should pay money). I'm not trying to insult you, but questions like these, questions where we flip the situation, weird me out. ^_^; The average person would, of course, say that Kramer has the right to demand an apology. Also, the real situation was far more disturbing than your hypothetical situation. Kramer didn't just say one thing, but continued to rag on the man for a very, very long time. Just my two cents.

I want to ask something.

If the black man called Kramer a cracker first, should Kramer have the right to demand a personal and public apology and demand money?

EDIT: Yes, hypothetical and I'm aware that the word "cracker" wasn't said first.

[Lilium]

Yes, Kramer should have the right to demand a private apology (The black man only wanted a private apology, by the way. Not a public one.), but not money (I agree that Kramer should issue the man a private apology, but I don't agree that he should pay money). I'm not trying to insult you, but questions like these, questions where we flip the situation, weird me out. ^_^; The average person would, of course, say that Kramer has the right to demand an apology. Also, the real situation was far more disturbing than your hypothetical situation. Kramer didn't just say one thing, but continued to rag on the man for a very, very long time. Just my two cents.

I ask flip-questions because, from my experience with racism-related debates, a large amount of the time white people aren't really allowed to say "hey, that's racist" or be upset. I haven't seen too much of that here, which is great - I think if anyone made a racist comment about a white person, whoever did so would probably be considered just as racist by the majority of the folks here. But I wanted to put the question out there to find out what the responses would be.

That Kramer was in the wrong here isn't at all a question for me.

[Queen Anime 99]

Okay. Gotcha. :D

I ask flip-questions because, from my experience with racism-related debates, a large amount of the time white people aren't really allowed to say "hey, that's racist" or be upset. I haven't seen too much of that here, which is great - I think if anyone made a racist comment about a white person, whoever did so would probably be considered just as racist by the majority of the folks here. But I wanted to put the question out there to find out what the responses would be.

That Kramer was in the wrong here isn't at all a question for me.

[Lilium]

Okay. Gotcha. :D

I should have been more clear before, sorry :) I hope my post above helped.

[Mat Growcott]

[v]quote]Kramer started the incident without provocation. I've also read that he is getting counseling in order to control his anger and figure out why he said what he said, so that's good.[/quote]

He didn't start without provocation. Whether he was directly insulted or whether the people in the audience were just heckling both we provoking him. Yeah, it is good that he's getting councelling, he obviously has an anger problem.


I just watched the video again. And he didn't stop saying anything racist if he made the comment about whether they can arrest him for calling a black man a nigger. That's racist and completely uncalled for whether it was "general" or not. Come one! That's not "the end" if he says something like that. Yes, I'll admit, he did pause. And the other guy called him cracker-ass (Also, racist and unneccessary, I admit) right after his pause. Okay? That meant he would stop being a nutbag?

He stopped saying anything racist for about 10 seconds or so. Right after "This shocks you" right up until "They're gonna..." or "You call me Cracker ass?" depending how you look at it. I don't think the "They're gonna..." is racist paticuarly. He couldn't have said that line any other way. I dunno, this is debatable.


Regardless, he should have, I don't know, apologized right after he uttered his first comment. And every single thing Kramer said was racist. It's NOT debateable. He occasionally tried to make it seem as though he was "joking" and making "social commentary". That's it. He wasn't "parodying" anything. All he was doing was trying to make himself look like he was just "playing" the entire time when he should have just ended his rant and apologized then and there. He had a problem with the "hecklers" (I use this term loosely because it appears that Kramer is the one who started everything according to many reports), but he chose to use their race as a weapon against them.

Why should he have apoligised? It was his show. They were talking through the show. It seems his show is based on anger, from the little i've seen. Look at John Cleese, his entire career was built out of shouting. He didn't act like he was playing. In fact for the majority of it, he seemed genuinely angry. I would be aswell if somebody had been talking through the entire act. Like i said, it's difficult to make judgement on what started it as the video cuts in so quickly, and it's fairly obvious SOMETHING had gone on before hand, because otherwise somebody wouldn't have begun recording it on the off chance that something would happen.


The victims (no need for coughing. They ARE victims. They were, I don't know, verbally attacked in a public place!), I've read, want him to apologize directly to them which makes sense. Yes, the body language expert said he was 100% sincere. Good. Did the victims see the body language expert? Maybe they didn't. Or maybe they want him to apologize directly to them because the apology is more powerful and heartfelt that way. I do think the money thing is kind of silly, though.

I don't think they were victims. Only as much as your a victim when you argue with a parent. It could debated that Richards was the victim in this aswell. He's certainly come out of it a lot worse, all because they were talking through his entire show.

I think the way to look at this is if they hadn't turned up, if they hadn't spoke through his entire show, this wouldn't have happened. He didn't have an outburst for no reason. They had been doing something to provoke him and he stupidly took the bait and...went way over the top.

I'd understand entirely if they wanted a private apology. That's fine. But as soon as money comes into it it's obvious that they're not hurt by what happened in that room and they're just milking it. They had said racist things aswell. Are the "victims" gonna turn around after Richards apoligises and say "That's alright...i'm sorry too" and hug and make up? Probaly not.


Again, I can't judge him and say that he is racist because I don't know him. I understand what you are trying to do though. However, Kramer most certainly has racist thoughts. It's really hard to argue that he is not racist when he was the one who not only started everything, but continued on and on (even before the pause and stuff) without stopping and apologizing.

In order to find out why he didn't stop we'd have to check out other clips from his standup. As i'm sure you know, when you get into character (which is what all stand up comedians have to do) it is occasionally difficult to get out. If he does get on stage, shout for an hour and a half and leave then it might be understandable as to why he didn't back down. We'd need more clips :D.


Welcome to the world of improvisational comedy? I've been in drama classes and we've done improv. At times, stupid things were uttered, but no one EVER went that FAR. I know you're not, but it sounds like you're trying to justify his actions. We know that people screw up, but he went WAY too far. He continued on and on and on. One slip up? Okay. Continued slip ups? Not okay at all. No one in improvisational comedy ever goes that far. Even when you made your sexist slip-up, you didn't continue on and on like Kramer did.

That comment wasn't aimed at you, apoligies if it was you i had replied to and thought it was someone else or...w/e. And to just correct you, no one in improvisational comedy ever does that and gets it spread accross the pages. I was in a comedy club the other week who's entire act was like this. He would just stand there and insult people and the audience was loving it. He never said anything racist, but they were still very insulting. I guess it all depends, once again, on how politically correct you are. Is calling someone ugly not as bad as calling someone a nigger? Nigger didn't really have the negative conotations on the whole until the 60's, it was just another word like black or coloured (Coloured actually offends most of my black friends more than the word nigger does. But that's just them). Maybe these words aren't the best to describe black people, but they're a word of the times.


Yes, I got the "It's a nigger" thing. However, that was not the obvious mental place to go from his previous comment. The obvious mental place to go would have been "Oh S$%^! I'm sorry!" That's what I would have done if I said anything like that.

Saying "Oh Shit" i'm sorry, from anyones point of view, could have been seen as anti-climactic. Yes, it would have been for the best. But i doubt very much anyone would have backed down after saying something like that, especially since A, he got the laugh and B, he is TRYING to offend the hecklers, the fact that he used racist words is neither here nor there. He is TRYING to shut them up. Saying "OMG, SORRY" is putting them in a position of power. And who wants do that in an arguement.

You're right, apoligising would have been the smart thing to do. But i have a safe bet that 90% of people, after saying that wouldn't have backed down.




A smart person would have shut up. There is nothing wrong with defending himself and i'm not blaming him for doing so. But if that had happened to me, i'd have walked out and made my complaints, same way they have done now. If it wasn't for the fact he carried on shouting his mouth off, the hecklers would probaly have their money now, rather than it being debated.

[quote]I agree that the dude shouldn't have sunk to Kramer's level. Um, what does the dude's comments about Kramer's career have to do with ANYTHING? And, um, Kramer probably DOES have to work again. Does anyone even know how much Kramer got Which is why he was probably doing stand-up instead of relaxing at home swimming in a pile of money.

The heckler was trying to demean Richards career. He'd tried the race card and Richards could care less and so he started on his career. This is a case of political correctness once again. It is ok to offend what he does for a living? it's ok to say whatever you want, as long as you stay away from race? (Which the heckler tried).

TBH though i just wanted to point out what a stupid remark it is. ONLY Seinfeld? Only, debatably, the most popular sit-com of the 90's?! ONLY THAT?!

As for your last comment, Jerry Seinfeld said that Richards is worth millions. He doesn't have to work again. But, in the same way that Billy Connoly, Queen, The Rolling Stones, the Who, Ellen Degeneres, Jerry Seinfeld, Larry David, Paul Daniels, Johnny Depp, Ian Mckellen and every other successful person/group ever, they do it because they love it, not because they need the money.

[Amped2Flash]

I want to ask something.

If the black man called Kramer a cracker first, should Kramer have the right to demand a personal and public apology and demand money?

EDIT: Yes, hypothetical and I'm aware that the word "cracker" wasn't said first.

Just to clear the air.. I believe racism against any race is still racsim.

So if Kramer was having racial attacks thrown at him I would be angry and the ignorant black guy who said it. Coincidentally, I am.

[Queen Anime 99]

Did you check out the wikipedia link? Please check that out before arguing with me about what did and did not occur. According to the wikipedia.com link (and other reports), the victim and his friends were ordering drinks a bit too loudly (not purposefully) and then Kramer said, and I quote, 'Look at the stupid Mexicans and blacks being loud up there." THEN, the guy and his friends started to heckle Kramer, which lead to the recorded outburst. As I said before, Kramer STARTED the incident without provocation. Please read more about the incident. I would not say that unless it was true.

Dude, I agreed with you about the pause. "They're gonna..." IS racist. It isn't debateable. How can you NOT see that it is racist? It was targeted towards the dude and blatantly hurtful. What was the point, really? To be hurtful and negative towards the man using his race as a weapon. Come on! You can't argue about that.

Are you kidding me? Why shouldn't he apologize?! What the heck?! He PUBLICLY HUMILATED A DUDE WITH RACIST REMARKS! Hello? Did you miss that or something? This has NOTHING to do with the show or his comedy style or (Dude, RACIST REMARKS. He had shows like this before? Come on, man!) Do not even bring that up, that has nothing to do with ANYTHING. Cleese shouts, but I don't recall him saying racist crap! I can't believe you would even say that he shouldn't have to apologize. And as I said before, read some reports before arguing with me about the incident. Kramer started the entire racist incident and he should apologize. You keep bringing up random things like "It's improvisational comedy" or "The black dude might have started the incident." That has nothing to do with anything! I guess it's okay to repeatedly target someone based on their race in a public place because it's "improvisational comedy." He went WAY too far and he should apologize.

Mat, quit it. Quit blaming him for what happened. Kramer is the victim? KRAMER STARTED THE ENTIRE INCIDENT. It's his own fault that he's the victim. We all know that Kramer's career is probably done for, but when you say victim, it looks like you are taking the blame off of Kramer. What the hell are you talking about? The black guy and his friends are the victims because they were publicly humilated and emotionally traumatized by Kramer's disgusting comments. So, Mat, it's the victim's fault that Kramer took their race and beat them to death with it? That's akin to saying that the rape victim is at fault because she wore tight clothing and danced provocatively. I guess it was okay for Kramer to beat them to death with racial remarks, hm? If the victims hadn't been there, nothing would have happened. It's the victims fault for Kramer's outburst. Yeah. Right. Mat, quit while you are ahead. That was a disgusting comment. Quit blaming them for what happened. Kramer went too far, Mat. Quit trying to put everything on the victims. KRAMER NOT ONLY STARTED, BUT HE CONTINUED IT. And how do YOU know if the victims wouldn't apologize? You don't know anything about them or what they would do! Jeez, Mat, quit with the negativity towards the victims. If I didn't know you, it would seem as though you think they deserved what they got.

I don't care if the improv thing was aimed at me or not. The comment about improv made no sense. The comedy show act you saw was NOT the same as Kramer's thing and you know it. Quit treating me like an idiot. I watch comedy shows all the time and comedians often make fun of people in the audience. Lisa Lampanelli makes some of the most offensive comments to members of her audience. However, her show is NOT the same as Kramer's outburst. There was NO joking, do you understand? Kramer wasn't just playing around with audience members. No. He was VERBALLY ABUSING AUDIENCE MEMBERS BECAUSE HE WAS PISSED OFF FOR NO REASON AND HE'S POSSIBLY RACIST. Don't bring in the "is ugly better than nigger?" What? This wasn't "fun-fun" time. Your comedy show was not the same as Kramer's show. Don't you dare compare the two. "Maybe these words aren't the best to describe black people, but they're a word of the times." Um, yeah. What does that have to do with Kramer's racist remarks? Sorry, I'm confused as to what point you are trying to make...?

"And to just correct you, no one in improvisational comedy ever does that and gets it spread accross the pages."

Yeah, Mat. These things happen SO much. Don't play me. I've been in drama classes in high school and college which means I've seen a ton of improv. I have NEVER seen anything akin to Kramer's outburst. Stuff like Kramer's outburst does NOT happen often and you know it. Quit trying to water down his outburst with all your comments about improv. If Kramer's crap happened so often, there would be NO improv performances.

Yes, Kramer was trying to offend the hecklers (Yes. I got that. Thank.). And yes he would have put the hecklers back in power (Right, they would feel back in power after Kramer's racist remark. Haha. Most people would feel like SHIT at that point, Mat. Come on.), but that would be smart. Please stop insulting the intelligence of people. Most people WOULD say I'm sorry at that point. Maybe YOU wouldn't, but most people would (90%? Right...) Everyone doesn't think about whether something is "climatic" or "anti-climatic" like you do. Sorry. Oh yeah. Most people wouldn't go on a psychotic racist rant, either. Yes, people have their bad days, but goddamn.

Oh, just because YOU'D do something it means that if someone does the opposite of what you'd do, it wouldn't be smart. Gotcha. And, um, I was just talking about when the dude said "That was uncalled for." Not the "cracker" business because that was definitely crazy. And even if they did what you would have done, it doesn't mean that they'd get their money now anyway.

He "tried" the race card?! Were you paying attention? If someone shouts racist epithets at you, you can automatically use the race card. That comment about the race card business was really weird. If someone uses racial epithets, you can't say someone is using the "race card," which is often used as a joke phrase for people who erroneously assume that they are not being treated right because of their race.

Yes, he can make comments about his career! What's your point? And what does talking about his career have to do with political correctness?! What the hell? That's not the same thing, Mat! Yes, if a guy shouts racial epithets at you, you can talk about his career. You shouldn't, but you can. "90% of people would do that." And, um, again, what does that have to do with Kramer's outburst? Quit trying to put the attention on the victim. And yeah, talking about his job (or lack thereof) isn't worst than talking about someone's race. ESPECIALLY after said person shouted racial epithets at you. Quit with the social commentary stuff and keep the attention on Kramer where it belongs.

Thanks for the information about Kramer never having to work again. I'll put that in my memory bank for future use.

Mat, I know you like to look at everything from like 15,000 points of view, and that's cool, but that is not working for this argument. Please don't bring up improv or comedy styles. That has NOTHING to do with Kramer's outburst and you know it. That's akin to saying that in improv, outburts like that can happen and are very common, which, of course, is not true. Also, please read more on what happened and stop being so negative about the victim (Yes, the victim). He was beaten with racial epithets and even if he HAD heckled Kramer (without being provoked by Kramer himself) he didn't deserve that.

I know you are trying to explain why things occur, but it really sounds like you are putting the blame on the victim which you shouldn't do. Your question about why Kramer should have to apologize really disturbed me. I don't know why you would ask such a question. Yes, it was his show, but he should obviously apologize for those awful remarks. Some of your comments sound like you are saying what Kramer did was okay and that the victim brought it on. I know you feel Kramer's comments were also horrendous, so please be careful what you write.

And, um, sorry, but Kramer is totally racist. There is not enough explaining in the world for Kramer's outburst. I am looking at this from your point of view and thinking about his "parodying" and "social commentary" comments, but Kramer obviously has some severe race issues, especially because of his first comment "Look at the stupid Mexicans and blacks being loud up there."