Immigrant protest?

[Kagome]

What do u guys think of the immigrant protest thing?

I'm not sure what it's about but...I think it has something to do with immigrants. How the government people are planning to send all illegal immigrants without papers back to their countries.
There was a walk out at my school, I didnt go heh..., but yeah they walked really far for the protest thing..tellin everyone that its not fair and that they wont go back to school. There was about 2,000 people 0.o LOL

So what do YOU think about this whole new law thing that might exist?


Kagome Higurashi

[Zankoku no Yami]

How about explaining what it is for us who have no idea about it? ^_~

[Kagome]

KK! ^.~ I did!

[Nikki Wright]

A post like this belongs in To Be Or Not To Be. ::moved:: Please read the forum descriptions prior to posting. Thank you in advance. ^.^

[Kagome]

^.^' Heh...I knew I was doing something wrong... Uh thankyou Nikki! ^.~

[Matt Alan]

My opinion? Illegal immigrants should get their damn green cards just like everyone else who wishes to live in America. Its not fair to those who DO go through the process of becoming an American citizen.

[Melissa B]

Yeah, well this has been in the ropes for quite some time.

But illegal immigrants SHOULD be sent back. If they really wanted to live here, they'd actually take the time to fill out the nessisary forms and such.

As for the walk out, I think it's ridiculous. What say do a bunch of teenagers have to do with illegal immigants? Absolutely nothing.
However, they should do their part and get their cards, otherwise they have no reason to be here. End of story.

[Zankoku no Yami]

I'm going to have to agree with Matt and Mipsacri.

Everyone should have to follow the same rules. No exceptions. You want in, do the paper work. Nuff said.

[Kagome]

Yeah, well this has been in the ropes for quite some time.

But illegal immigrants SHOULD be sent back. If they really wanted to live here, they'd actually take the time to fill out the nessisary forms and such.

As for the walk out, I think it's ridiculous. What say do a bunch of teenagers have to do with illegal immigants? Absolutely nothing.
However, they should do their part and get their cards, otherwise they have no reason to be here. End of story.
Wow thats so true! Well the reason they left the school was because "they believed" that was the right thing to do. To fight for he rights f immigrants. Such as mexicans and azns and other different races that dont have any papers. but I understand what youre trying to say heh heh...If a hispanic in my school read what u guys said...wow 0.0 they would go call you guys racists LMAO XD But nah I understand what u guys mean ^.~ I to thought that the "walk out was stupid! Thats why I didnt go.

[fairuza]

I kinda find the walkout thing a bit ridiculous.I agree with what everyone's saying though.It's totally true.^^
Where I live,this walkout thing is just consuming to the people that live here and it's just gets annoying when they repeatedly report the walkout protest on the news everyday.
That's just my opinion.^^

[hideko_dahlia]

Unless they are like that one Afganistan guy who needed asylum in another country... Do the damn paperwork. They're cheating people that DO pay their taxes and stuff to live here out of jobs and money that SHOULD be theirs.

[Tom]

Illegal immigrants do not take money away from citizens. In fact, the jobs that illegal immigrants do are often shit work that pays shit money (way below minimum wage) that an ordinary citizen would never think about doing.

Would you pick fruit for $2 an hour and live in the ghetto by choice? I didn't think so. Would you work six-day weeks in a crappy kitchen preparinging food for twelve hours a day to get paid crap? How about wipe the floors at Wal-Mart?

This is a delicate subject. I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done about the situation--but kicking out every single illegal immigrant would severely change our economy and balance of how we live. Of course immigrants should come to the country legally, but it's not always that simple. It's not as black and white as "do it the right way."

As far as the protest goes, I think people should protest whatever the hell they want to protest. If we weren't allowed to protest anything, nothing would ever change.

[Windy*]

You guys should know what you're posting about before making a topic for it... @_@;; The protests aren't about sending them all back; it's a protest about making the state of being an illegal immigrant a felony.

People can protest, sure, but I think their cause is ridiculous. You can't get away with doing illegal things here forever, that's all there is to it. (Unless you're a certain president, but nevermind that.) Either do it right or face the consequences - but these people are choosing to break our laws by coming here illegally, and they are fully aware of it. Maybe they don't believe in it, but if the bill passes, they'll have to deal with it.

That being said, businesses shouldn't be encouraging them by hiring/providing benefits for them, but that's corruption and greed for you. (Why pay an American at minimum wage or higher when you can pay an immigrant for less? Simple.)

I don't think we should send anyone back right now, just monitor people much more closely in the future. While they may not "take money" from us in the respect of jobs and whatnot, there are other negative effects of illegal immigration that can be seen here. Both negative and positive, I should say - our economy would definitely fall apart without the immigrants we have now, as Tom said.

[Tom]

Legality is _not_ always black and white. Sodomy is against the law in a lot of places. Gay marriage is against the law everywhere. Alcohol used to be illegal. In certain places, it is illegal for women to show their faces in public. It used to be acceptable for a white man to keep a black man as a slave. None of these things have anything to do with immigration--but none of them were black and white.

Also, consider a small example of tomatos. Many tomatoes that are domestically grown, are grown in the California central valley. Many of the people who pick those tomatoes are illegal immigrants, day laborers in other words. If tommorow we magically kicked out all the illegal immigrants, the following would happen--we would have a shortage of tomatoes because nobody is picking them; the price of tomatoes goes up, farmers have to hire new workers and pay them the federal minimum wage. This makes their production costs skyrocket, and they pass the difference onto the consumer, and tomato prices go even higher, even after a new crop reaches the market.

Our country was not built on tomatos, and tomatos don't necessarily dictate the economy--but $3 for a pound of tomatos wouldn't be a very ideal situation. Our way of life is dictated by balance, and illegal immigrants are a part of that balance. There are better ways of dealing delicate situations, not just kicking everyone out of the country.

If tomorrow your government made it illegal for a woman to have a job and own her own property--wouldn't you be pissed off? It would be black and white, right and wrong, legal and illegal.

[Jessica Adnee]

Well, hate me if you want, but I was a part of the walk out at my school.

I personally think, however, that we have so much better things to worry about that this seems just stupid to talk about now. So many more important things are going on in the world that it seems a bit odd to start worrying about this now.

It's like when the war in Iraq started up and Bush decided to then move on with his plan to get rid of gay marriage.

That's why I'm against it. Let them stay... I don't see any real damage being done.

[hideko_dahlia]

Not that I'd mind all the tomatos disappearing. ><;; *YUCK*

But, just to play devil's advocate here....

Even if the immigrants did leave, there are still the thousands and thousands of unemployed people that have been out of work forEVER and need to do something other than eat away at government dollars. There would still be people to work those things. But the immigrants are more willing to work. Why? They do want to come live here. But if they really wanted all the benefits, they need to do the paper work. If there are others who should be getting the jobs, and aren't... why aren't the employers hiring them? Because the unemployed people are being lazy, and find it easier to lay back on the tax money than to actually go try to make a future for themselves. (Not saying that that's the case for every person, but there are those like that.... >>; )

Okay I feel better.

[ShockDingo]

This whole thing is an issue that I feel needs to be adressed. I didn't think much of illegal immigrants at first, but then when I realized how many there are currently, it was an eye opener. I'm just worried that someone in some form will take advantage of the border security probelm in a really bad way :o
Just my rambling

[Hikuro]

I wont lie to you guys here, I believe by coming to this country illegally you should be placed as a criminal. They came to this country without proper papers/documents, and they're allowed to suck our social security, our taxes, and our welfare with fake ID's, Social Security Numbers, voting, etc.

Here in Oregon our DMV will actually just go ahead and give Illegals a Drivers liscenes and some Highschool's will hold conventions for Illegals in the area to get ID's and how too use welfare and unemployement benefits to get money and to cheat the citizenship system that would garuntee them a better life.

Not too mention I'm not saying ALL but a good amount of Illegals also end up doing Illegal things, such as Meth making, drug dealings, pimping, prostitution, etc. My town just last week had a drug raid where the FBI was involved, it was just a few hundred yards from where I live....all of them were Illegals from what I understood from neighbors.

Oregon's also got one of the highest minimum wage (7.50) in the country, and because of Oregon's tax system, many bussniess will hire illegals as a means of cheap labor because they'll work for anything, while us regular citizens are required to be paid 7.50+ for our services, and those bussniess can't afford it due to Oregon's tax system which is pathetic.
Course alot of the services illegals do are picking berries and farm work which we citizen class folks are too lazy or feel to "sophisticated" to perform....I don't call bullshit on this one, I admit, we're pretty fucking lazy and become very annoying on our choice for work. We all wanna sit on a nice comfy desk with AC and having internet access while working over 20 bucks an hour 5 days a week with a weekend off, health insurance, benefits, yada yada.
It makes me sick honestly cause sometimes I think like that.

Now....should Illegals protest?.......my opinion, its fucking stupid. Their protesting that by them being illegal they shouldn't be labeled as criminals? THEY ARE ILLEGAL......BECOMING ILLEGAL OR DOING ILLEGAL THINGS IS A CIRMINAL OFFENSE.

I can't support what they are doing, nor can I go and support someone who agrees with them that they shouldn't be treated as criminals.

Will our economy shatter? You know, the best way to find out, is trying it out.


Oh one more thing, they come to this country cause we're the land of the free home of the brave, we help others yada yada.......but if you can't learn the fucking language don't bother coming. Show the proper respect and learn how to speak English, not broken English, not "yes" or "No" but being able to discuss things with me, or others on the dealings of life.

I remember a few months ago a lil 8 year old girl had to TRANSLATE her damn mother and father cause they couldn't speak a word of English. In the long run they didn't even come to the right place cause they had a FORD, not a Nissan, a fucking FOOOOOOOORRRRRDDDDDDD. But I felt so sorry for this lil girl.

Same thing in a walmart, lil girl translating for her mother cause the cashier asked if they would like to donate a dollar to some child care deal. The girl asked and the mother said yes, the cashier started explaining things, the mother freaked out and grabbed her daughter and walked off, because the cashier would only talk to the mother, not the daughter.

I'm also getting pissed off that when I need to look for a pamphlate to get a food handlers card, or a drivers manual, I can find it in Russian, Chinese, Spanish, and Arabic, but English? NOPE.

[Kagome]

Wow! This is REALLY becoming a discussion! ^.^ I really support everyone's oppinions! In a way I'm kinda against it but in another big different way I think it is bad that illegal immigrants come to this country without doing what everyone does "PAPERWORK AND THAT..OTHER STUFF" Heh ^.^' Well I'm barely a freshman and I'm starting to understand this whole political stuff <--(yes I am not THAT smart lol sorry) and yeah I'm happy that you guys are posting your oppinions ^.^

[Masahiko]

illegal immigration to me is the process of cutting in line. but what about the american thingy thats said on the statue of liberty of "give me your tired, your poor your huddled masses or whatever" as much as illegal immigration crowds our schools and stuff, i hate to punish a poor person, remember, these illegal immigrants are the backbone of the mexican economy, think what would happen if mexico stopped recieving money from the illegals in america... that be even more reason for them to go here to america...

illegal immigration is bad, but i hate to see them be labeled as felons, and i also hate to see them be considered as the backbone of the economy with all the shitty jobs they do, basically they're low paid slaves IMO. as a human rights activist, i feel they should stay in america, but also be taken care of, cause they ARE the ones who take care of mexico. and remember, mexico was there for us during hurricane katrina. no one should be considered less than equal cause if bush allowed them to stay just to pick grapes; then thats what he's implying. that stupid guest worker program... my suggestion is, make LEGAL immigration a much easier and simpler process.. it took my uncle 12 years to come to america from the philippines, now hes here, hes old already.

ahh who care, you guys all suck.

[fukkatsu]

Hmmm. This is sticky because at the same time as I want them to go away and come back the right way I want to tell them they can stay and continue helping us out.

If you think about it, they take all the jobs that we don't like. All the jobs that we feel are "beneath" us. They really are the backbone of our economy. We are suppose to take in those who need us to take them in but in a world so uncertain today it is hard to keep by our old standards. No one thought that people would illegally come into our country and massacre us when people started coming to the US in mass quantities in the late 1800's - early 1900's. They just thought they were doing a good thing by helping those suffering elsewhere and I agree. We have a lot of opportunity here.

The things I don't agree with are the fact that they come here without going through the process that is put forth for them. I know it is long, tedious and just plain troublesome but that the rules and for good reason. They come here to have children who are American citizens once born, have to stay now according to law, and then mooch off of our welfare system in which our hard earned taxes are paying for. I am not saying the majority do that...but that is one angle about it that makes me boil.

It is really a split choice for me for the most part.

[FinfoxAelia]

Well, I don't support illegal immigration, however I wouldn't send them back there and cut off the border. That would be just cruel, the jobs in Mexico pay almost nothing and their living conditions are bad as well. A great deal of them can't even afford legal documents to get into America because their current job in Mexico only pays them 12 cents an hour. And they are the backbone of the Mexican economy, so if they're not allowed into America the Mexican economy would collapse.

[Ichigo_Love]

im not the smartest person in my school and im not really into politics but if you want to know what i think is that people come to this country to give there families a good life simply because their countries dont offer those opportunities that the USA give to them. Im half Mexican and have Viet. and my mom is been really sad because of her friends and my relatives all of them are hispanic and so far they are scared because they will soon be lable as criminals there not here to kill us or to steal from us there here to work hard and honestly. many people may think that hispanics just come here to take jobs but if u really think about it would any American would do the jobs that illegal immigrants do?? the answer is simply they dont, hispanics do the jobs that americans dont want to do. just because these person is not from this country doesnt mean anything there people and everyone in the eyes of god and in everyone's eyes everyone mexicans viets chinese or any type of country the are there equal and make hispanics criminals without doing anything well that means that not everyone see hispanics equal to americans. to me republicans are just dumb they dont think of the consequences of what this law could do to them who many kids will be separeted from there parents just because those kids were born here and there parents werent
just think about those families that could be separeted and will make them sad thats mostly what im thinking about there families
i have help my hispanic friends in their portest and both my parents have been proud of me !!!!:neutral:
and i would love for Bush to help even more if he could :neutral: well thats what i think

but not only that remember texas and part of california did used to belong to mexico so its just like mexicans are coming back to there native country its just that people dont really think hard and those who think that mexicans should be deported they really dont know anything about the economy and the help hispanics have give to this country

[hideko_dahlia]

my suggestion is, make LEGAL immigration a much easier and simpler process..

I copmletely agree with that! I mean, I've seen the immigration tests... We took them when I was in like 8th grade just to see how much we could answer.... I had no idea what a lot of it was, and I was one of the best kids in the class! I mean, I understand theoretically why those questions are there... but do they REALLY need to be THAT hard? Most American-born citizens couldn't pass that test. If they made it easier, and a less lenfthy process to get into the country, then the influx of illegal immigrants might go down. Then again, there is a good reason why it's so hard... Although I can't say my heart is in that statement... (Okay, it's late, and now I'm rambling.)

[Hikuro]

In a way, I agree immigration process should be simpler, but if that happened terrorists could also come into the country easier. Sorry, I don't wanna be Canada (sorry no offense...I just hear its pretty loose on the borders there)

I heard just a tad bit of a press conference that was in California, legislatives pretty much saying they don't want to go thru this process of claiming illegals as felones and what not. This is also coming from a state that tried to legalize gay marriage till they finally couldn't get away with it anymore.

Now, good ol Govenator should be taking a stand as he's been asked during his time running for the position what he would do with the borderse in Southern California and Illegal Imirgrants.

[Zankoku no Yami]

I learned a thing or two about this immigration issue. And well... what do you all suppose will happen when we make all illegal immigrants legal? You think the 'backbone' of our country will continue the jobs they have? Why would they? I mean, if they are 'legal' and have all the same rights as us... whos jobs do you think they're gonna take? They're not gonna keep these penut waging jobs. No, they're gonna take the big paying jobs! Then there goes all OUR work. Not to mention, they'll reep the benefits of welfair. Something alot of american's dont even get. People born and raised in america, spent their life working their asses off, only to loose it to someone else who didnt go through any trouble at all. But instead, illegally came over here and got benefits americans have a hard time getting.

Alot of legal immigrants dont even like this idea. They went through alot of hard work to become legal. While all tehse people have to do is sneak over here and demand rights to get them?

People who think these illegal immigrants are good for us, are dead wrong. There is nothing good about them ILLEGALLY coming over here. Its called ILLEGAL because its AGAINST THE LAW. If if you want in america so badly, OBEY THE LAWS. Simple as that. Do the hard work to get in here. If you wanna be in America so bad, than thats a small price to take to get in here.

Nuff said.

[Ihsahn]

Well, here's my two cents:

Illegal immigration is a serious problem. It is costing the average taxpayer alot of money to support this kind of illegal behavior. But on the flipside, I can sympathize with most illegal immigrants that come here. The citizenship registration process can take rediculously long, and needs reworking.

I think the current administration is doing a terrible job of handling the situation. It seems like they simply refuse to secure the borders, which is why groups like the minutemen are there in the first place. Everyone knows that on order to save a sinking ship, you need to fix the leak FIRST, then focus on bailing the water out of the boat. My solution: Build a wall. In the meantime, have the Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California National Guard secure the border, because the Border Patrol is vastly undermanned.

But I also know this: Deporting millions of illegal immigrants is simply impossible. We should work out a guest worker program that lasts anywhere from 1-5 years. Give illegals everywhere one year to apply, afterwards, tough luck. Finally, once all that is completed, totally re-work the citizenship application process to make it faster and easier to become a citizen.

There. Problem solved.

[HyperFaerie]

It's funny. At work today we were having a discussion about this. One of the guys I work with (who happens to be a legal immigrant from the middle east) brought it up. It was funny because he was all for sending illegal immigrants home. I love my co-workers.

At any rate. I don't really care. It doesn't matter if it's mad a fellony or the government sends everyone back. There will always be people coming here illegaly.

My only pet-peeve is the lack of attempting to learn the language. If I were going to move to another country, I'd atleast attempt to learn enough of their language to get by. English is the language spoken here. Freaking speak it.:shutup

[Zankoku no Yami]

My only pet-peeve is the lack of attempting to learn the language. If I were going to move to another country, I'd atleast attempt to learn enough of their language to get by. English is the language spoken here. Freaking speak it.:shutup

Amen.

See, alot of legal immigrants are against illegal immigrants simply because they went through all the hard work of coming to america the LEGAL way. Is it really fair that others dont have to go through the same process?

And I have to agree with Ihsahn. Build a wall. Maybe have people with guns stationed at points that fire warning shots. Come any closer and it'll be your head! There are SO many ways to stop this issue. But our government isnt doing shit about it! If america REALLY wanted to stop something, they could. But i dont think they really want too.

[Chris Nagy]

I always get a good laugh out of immigration topics. Let's look at the highlight reel from this thread. First up is Matt Alan.


My opinion? Illegal immigrants should get their damn green cards just like everyone else who wishes to live in America.An interesting opinion that doesn't exactly say whether we should legalize the illegals, or send them packing. It can be easily interpreted as "do the paperwork" or "go home and don't come back until you have a green card."


But illegal immigrants SHOULD be sent back. If they really wanted to live here, they'd actually take the time to fill out the nessisary forms and such. Ah yes, the people who cross the borders in droves to work shit jobs don't really want to live here, because if they did they would fill out the paperwork. Obviously, they don't want to live here at all, hence the protesting. "Send Us Home! No More Work!"


What say do a bunch of teenagers have to do with illegal immigants? Absolutely nothing. Yeah, none of them happen to be children of illegals, born legally in the United States. None of them have extended family that are illegals, or even friends that fit the previous cases.


Everyone should have to follow the same rules. No exceptions. You want in, do the paper work. "No exceptions! Go back. Leave your kids, they are citizens, but you have been an exception for far too long." Yeah, everyone should follow the same rules, and as soon as "what should be" and "what is" are the same thing, this opinion will have some relevance.


I to thought that the "walk out was stupid! Thats why I didnt go. Walking out of school is stupid; the school itself has no say in the matter. Furthermore, alot of students will take up any cause if a walkout presents itself.


They're cheating people that DO pay their taxes and stuff to live here out of jobs and money that SHOULD be theirs. I hate to be the fact police, but this statement is too flawed to pass up. Here is how it works; Joe Farmer subcontracts the picking of his crops to a Labor Company. Labor Company hires illegal aliens and gives them fake social security numbers. The reason for this is because Labor Company has to keep the books looking right so that IRS Man doesn't bring down the hammer.

Labor company pays the taxes on Illegal Immigrant's wage, but the taxes aren't too much because Illegal Immigrant makes very little money. Compounded by all the Illegal Immigrants, though, this equals a large chunk of money; money that is never claimed in refund (because the social security numbers are fake,) money that is never claimed through benefits (because Illegal Immigrant doesn't know he can claim benefits without being deported, most like to stay under the radar.) Illegal Immigrant does send his child to school, which represents some cost on the community, but it does not outweight what they put into the system.


This is a delicate subject. I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done about the situation--but kicking out every single illegal immigrant would severely change our economy and balance of how we live. If nothing else, the cost of deportation would hit us hard. The line of buses required to remove all of the illegals would stretch from Mexico's border to Canada's border if lined up.


Even if the immigrants did leave, there are still the thousands and thousands of unemployed people that have been out of work forEVER and need to do something other than eat away at government dollars. I used to spend time in the mountains of Kentucky, as I have family there. Mr. Government Check is almost a Patron Saint around those parts. You can't force people to work and, because of our social welfare programs, you can't let them starve either. So if the immigrants left, that doesn't fix the unemployment problem amongst the willfully unemployed, and the people actually looking for jobs are not going to want to work the fields as they could spend time working at McDonald's for the same money. Being a former unemployed bum, it wasn't that I couldn't find a job, it was that I had these American Standards that kept me out of fast food and would have also kept me out of farm labor.


I'm just worried that someone in some form will take advantage of the border security probelm in a really bad way The chances of a terrorist entering through Mexico are actually very slim; our border control is barely funded enough to keep out the Drug Smugglers and Banditos (which is the primary concern,) let alone every Joe Mexico who wants to pick oranges.


I believe by coming to this country illegally you should be placed as a criminal. They came to this country without proper papers/documents, and they're allowed to suck our social security, our taxes, and our welfare with fake ID's, Social Security Numbers, voting, etc. Hikuro, buddy, get your facts straight. Or at least get them from reality. They don't drain social security, a vast majority of them never go on welfare, and no place in the States will ever let them vote. These people do their damnest to never get noticed by the government; this is a big deterent to filing for tax refunds, signing up for benefits, and going on welfare.

THEY ARE ILLEGAL......BECOMING ILLEGAL OR DOING ILLEGAL THINGS IS A CIRMINAL OFFENSE. This is probably the winner of the thread, as far as hilarious is concerned. I actually delved into Immigration Law to see if there was any basis in this; end sum, not really. If they catch you trying to cross the border, you get detained and dumped back into your country. If you break a law here, you spend some time here in prison, and then you get deported. If you are caught here being an illegal alien... generally, nothing happens. Do you know why? ILLEGAL ALIEN is a status, not a crime. That is why the House wants to pass a bill to make it a crime, because it is not, in and of itself, already a crime.

In short, Hikuro is a dyed in the wool racist. A good ole American Boy.


How do you know they won't simply hire some students to take the job like what happens at the strawberry farms and apple orchards in Ontario? I don't know for certain how Canada's climate compares to that of South Florida, but I do know that students here are not about to go out in that sun unless it is to have fun. The student population might lessen the blow in one or two aspects of agriculture, but they aren't a replacement. They won't necessarily pick up the slack in lawn maintainance, or any job with uncomfortable working conditions when they could get the same pay or better at Wendy's. I certainly wouldn't want a student making my Cuban Sandwich.


You're also still missing the point -- as long as it is illegal, it is a black and white issue. Again, nothing I've found shows that being an Illegal Alien is itself a crime. I went through alot of the law, admittedly not all of it, but it seems to reason that if the House is trying to make the status of Illegal Alien a crime, then it is not already a crime, or at least not what the law considers a serious one. Considering US law, it is entirely likely that it is some sort of Class 4 Misdemeanor that could result in Deportation if anyone ever cared to follow up on it. For the most part, you are here until you are caught breaking the law, then you are deported.


I heard just a tad bit of a press conference that was in California, legislatives pretty much saying they don't want to go thru this process of claiming illegals as felones and what not. This is also coming from a state that tried to legalize gay marriage till they finally couldn't get away with it anymore. Racist and homophobe, you are truly a backwoods Renaissance Man. What do you do for an encore?


And well... what do you all suppose will happen when we make all illegal immigrants legal? You think the 'backbone' of our country will continue the jobs they have? Why would they? I mean, if they are 'legal' and have all the same rights as us... whos jobs do you think they're gonna take? They're not gonna keep these penut waging jobs. No, they're gonna take the big paying jobs! Then there goes all OUR work. Not to mention, they'll reep the benefits of welfair. Something alot of american's dont even get. First off, no one is talking about Amnesty. They aren't suddenly going to become citizens, they are going to have to go through the process but they'd do it here. Secondly, Ronald Reagan did give Amnesty (though it was never called that) to millions of immigrants in 1986, and I don't exactly see the economy in a mess because of that.

Seriously though, are you trying to tell me that uneducated mexican workers are going to provide competition for high paying jobs? The laws regarding immigration provide for "highly skilled" aliens to enter quite easily and quite legally; I highly doubt there are computer scientists working the fields.


People who think these illegal immigrants are good for us, are dead wrong. There is nothing good about them ILLEGALLY coming over here. Its called ILLEGAL because its AGAINST THE LAW. If if you want in america so badly, OBEY THE LAWS. If you are like the average American, you break the law repeatedly. Cross the street outside of a crosswalk? Jaywalking. Go above the speed limit? That's breaking the law. Littering? Breaking the law. I don't suppose you've actually studied this issue, have you?


And I have to agree with Ihsahn. Build a wall. Maybe have people with guns stationed at points that fire warning shots. Come any closer and it'll be your head! And here I thought no one could dethrone Hikuro from his position as the King of Immigration Ignorance. The throne has a new King, but you shall rule alone.

Just a little background about myself. I was born here, I like my orange juice at $3 a gallon as opposed to $5, my father came here legally as a political refugee from Communist Romania and proceeded to get nearly rich the American Way. My mother was born here, Irish and Native American in varying amounts, and her family lives mostly in Kentucky. There is no excuse that you, the grand citizens, can't live out the American dream except that a great many of you are far too lazy to try and work for it. You have all the advantages that the illegals do not, all the privileges that the illegals are hesistant to claim through ignorance of the system, and you benefit from the work that they do through lower prices for produce.

Their children are legal, but you sick bastards wouldn't hesitate to split up the families on some ill-concieved notion that the illegals are ruining your America. Their children will do better than you, because they know that they can't rely on Mommy or Daddy to get them a car for their 16th birthday, or keep a College Fund for them. But more than anything, it looks like you are looking for someone to blame rather than take responsibility for your own life. Either that, or you are mindlessly parroting what others have told you. Either way, grow up.

[Eva]

Wow, you like calling people racist.

How 'bout this? Go to Mexico, wave an American flag, and demand they allow you to own property there. Tell me how that works out.

[Cristina]

This thread makes me ache inside. ._.

[Chris Nagy]

Wow, you like calling people racist.

How 'bout this? Go to Mexico, wave an American flag, and demand they allow you to own property there. Tell me how that works out.
I do believe I called one person a racist (though it is possible that I placed that label on two.) And exactly what does your point show? That America should lower itself to Mexico's standards? That we have an excuse not to live up to our ideals because other countries won't?

You do realize that I can own property in Mexico, right? That I can take my very much welcomed American Dollars and buy myself a little villa? Flying an American flag is going to make you a target to kidnappers who will believe that you are wealthy, but unless you have some insight on the matter that you aren't sharing, then your comment looks like a baseless, knee-jerk reaction. Seriously, did you even read what you had written before you posted it?

[Eva]

Ah, you see, you may not know this, but you can't own property in Mexico unless you're a CITIZEN of Mexico. You can rent it for 99 years, but you can't own it.

And the point of that is, why do they expect that they can break our laws, but we have to follow theirs?

[Ihsahn]

And I have to agree with Ihsahn. Build a wall. Maybe have people with guns stationed at points that fire warning shots. Come any closer and it'll be your head! There are SO many ways to stop this issue. But our government isnt doing shit about it! If america REALLY wanted to stop something, they could. But i dont think they really want too.

Hey now. I didn't say THAT. I wouldn't take it that far. I'm just saying build a wall to drastically slow the illegal flow. Not only because of illegal immigration, but also the smuggling of illegal drugs and weapons. There will still be illegals that get through, one way or another. I'm not suggesting we shoot anybody. But like I said, the politicians should have to hold up their end by reworking the citizenship registration process to make it quicker and easier. We can't stop illegals just by constructing a wall.

BTW, I believe most illegal immigrants have every right to be here, and they should have a chance at citizenship. I'm not suggesting amnesty, tho. It's the others (drug/weapons smugglers, violent criminals, MS-13 members) we have to try and keep out.

[Matt Alan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattAlan
My opinion? Illegal immigrants should get their damn green cards just like everyone else who wishes to live in America.

An interesting opinion that doesn't exactly say whether we should legalize the illegals, or send them packing. It can be easily interpreted as "do the paperwork" or "go home and don't come back until you have a green card."

I'll own up to that one. A post that wasn't well thought-out and honestly didn't say if I was for or against legalizing illegals. All I had intended to portray was that it frustrated and made me feel sorry how some people spend years trying to get into the country through all the legal methods, when other's just "hop the fence", even if it IS for the betterment of the economy, or has no ill effect on me being picky enough to not have to work my ass off picking grapes.

As a legally born American citizen, with a dad who makes a pretty comfy living, I have no right whatsoever to complain that there are thousands of people out there busting their asses to support family back in Mexico or wherever. I really don't. And I honestly don't have a good answer to the question at hand.

[Chris Nagy]

Ah, you see, you may not know this, but you can't own property in Mexico unless you're a CITIZEN of Mexico. You can rent it for 99 years, but you can't own it.

And the point of that is, why do they expect that they can break our laws, but we have to follow theirs?

You are absolutely right. I've never been to Mexico, I just know some clients who own a place there. They aren't citizens of Mexico, so I guess according to your information they don't own it-- but please tell me the concrete difference between a life-time rental and ownership, except that a rental cannot be passed on as inheritance?

As for breaking our laws, I cannot tell you any more than the fact that we are America, and in theory we are supposed to be better than everyone else. It's not always a fun job, living up to the Land of Promise ideal, but do you think these people are malicious in their breaking of the law, or does trying to make a better life for your family through honest work not matter in this instance? An appeal to shared humanity... if we need people to work these jobs, and it benefits both them and us, is it so bad?


I'll own up to that one. A post that wasn't well thought-out and honestly didn't say if I was for or against legalizing illegals. Glad to see you back in the thread, Matt. Thank you for clarifying your opinion on the matter, I was honestly curious as to what you meant. I can empathize with the people who have to wait, as my family has both types of immigrants in it; my uncle Zoltan managed to use some technicality to enter in his early twenties, my other uncle Attila had to wait close to ten years to come here from Austria.

The question about keeping the borders tight isn't a question at all, as far as I am concerned. I agree with you that we need to make everyone wait their turn... but what to do about the people already here? Those with families? Immigration is not a hard issue, it needs to be controlled... what to do with the immigrants already here, that is the problem. This is less aimed at Matt than at everyone else.

[Eva]

I firmly believe that, if an illegal paid the taxes they owed for their time in the country, we should make them citizens. But, of course, why would they want to do that when they can already get jobs?

Illegals in California demand signs be written in Spanish for them, they demand to be treated in hospitals, they generally want all the benefits without having to pay. Really, if they want to just work their jobs, get money for their families, etc etc, that's all well and good, but once they start demanding things, I start getting angry...

[Chris Nagy]

I don't understand, many illegals do pay taxes through the labor company that hires them. Now, this doesn't apply to day labourers who get paid cash by citizens who hire them, and I argee that we really should not show them as much preference as the ones who do pay taxes. I don't support making any of them citizens unless you mean through the normal route to citizenship, but legalizing the ones who have contributed is something I am personally for.

Unfortunately, alot of people don't make those distinctions.

[fukkatsu]

Illegals in California demand signs be written in Spanish for them, they demand to be treated in hospitals, they generally want all the benefits without having to pay. Really, if they want to just work their jobs, get money for their families, etc etc, that's all well and good, but once they start demanding things, I start getting angry...

I think that angers a lot of Americans and it should. The only reason that they can't be deported in California, and lord knows that have tried with these people, is because they slipped the system and had a child here. They can't send the child back and the child can't stay here without the mother so they take advantage of us a little more. (ex: welfare, school systems, jobs, etc.)

It is such a fine line with what we should do with the ones that are here. In my opinion I would make them pay out of their holes to stay. If they can't pay then good riddance.

(Oh and last time I checked around the border there was a fairly large electric fence. A lot of those who try to come in die before ever making it. So if a fence with shocking results won't keep them out I am sure a wall will not help either.)

[Chris Nagy]

On the point of demanding signs in Spanish, I can't really argue that; the national language of the United States of America is English, and regardless of whether or not we accomodate immigrants (illegal or otherwise) with signs or directions in their native language, they need to learn English to integrate with our society.

[Eva]

I'd also like to say, from what I've seen (As a HS student near LA) of the protests, they weren't very well thought out. Especially the school walkouts. Given, my school took a stupid approach to this, but most protesters didn't know what they were protesting, and only one of two had actually read the law. They also threw rocks at me when I waved the law at them....

Plus, I was not impressed with those that waved Mexican flags

[Yoda117]

I look at it this way, when your first act in my country is to break the law (by sneaking in), it doesn't say much for the level of respect you plan to give our country's laws

Laws aren't something you ignore when they don't suit your purposes. You may not like some of the laws, but if you don't believe in all of them and work to change them, well you might as well not have any at all.

I don't see a need for someone who chooses to violate the laws of the land to immediately suck on our social systems. I don't care. Get your own government to take care of you. I see that you're complaining about my government, well why not take that energy back to wherever you are from and protest there?

You want to complain that it's unfair to identify yourself when voting? TFB my friend, I don't wany anyone who didn't take the time to become a legal citizen voting in an election. You're obviously not thinking in my best interest.

A number of states give free college educations to "undocumented aliens". Let me get this straight... they violate the law and get a free education (which is tough to use since they can't provide any form of legal ID), but people who are LEGAL citizens, and actually need the $ can't get it...

Oh, and BTW: someone explain to me why the hell Canada and Mexico have such stringent working laws to keep people out, and enforce them (anyone ever see the wall at the southern Mexican border), yet we're not allowed to...?

Additionally why the hell are people complaining about the US building a wall when we're watching Mexican military roll into our land to help deliver drugs and threaten our border patrols?

You know, I brought some of these topics up for discussion when one of my more left-thinking friends gave me the whole "woe is the immigrant" thing. I didn't get one good answer out of him as to why we should allow this and heard the venerable, well you're a visitor here too, so watch what you say.

Guess what? I'm not. I was born here. As were my parents, as were members of my tribe. We were here first, and we're not going anywhere anymore without one hell of a fight. If you want, I'll be happy to help THEM pack, however. We don't need anyone around here who makes things worse.

[Chris Nagy]

So I read in the news today that US companies advertise in Mexico about jobs on poultry farms and whatnot, listing wages that far outstrip anything available to workers in Mexico (when jobs are available.) Opinions?

[Zankoku no Yami]

I look at it this way, when your first act in my country is to break the law (by sneaking in), it doesn't say much for the level of respect you plan to give our country's laws

Laws aren't something you ignore when they don't suit your purposes. You may not like some of the laws, but if you don't believe in all of them and work to change them, well you might as well not have any at all.

I don't see a need for someone who chooses to violate the laws of the land to immediately suck on our social systems. I don't care. Get your own government to take care of you. I see that you're complaining about my government, well why not take that energy back to wherever you are from and protest there?

You want to complain that it's unfair to identify yourself when voting? TFB my friend, I don't wany anyone who didn't take the time to become a legal citizen voting in an election. You're obviously not thinking in my best interest.

A number of states give free college educations to "undocumented aliens". Let me get this straight... they violate the law and get a free education (which is tough to use since they can't provide any form of legal ID), but people who are LEGAL citizens, and actually need the $ can't get it...

Oh, and BTW: someone explain to me why the hell Canada and Mexico have such stringent working laws to keep people out, and enforce them (anyone ever see the wall at the southern Mexican border), yet we're not allowed to...?

Additionally why the hell are people complaining about the US building a wall when we're watching Mexican military roll into our land to help deliver drugs and threaten our border patrols?

You know, I brought some of these topics up for discussion when one of my more left-thinking friends gave me the whole "woe is the immigrant" thing. I didn't get one good answer out of him as to why we should allow this and heard the venerable, well you're a visitor here too, so watch what you say.

Guess what? I'm not. I was born here. As were my parents, as were members of my tribe. We were here first, and we're not going anywhere anymore without one hell of a fight. If you want, I'll be happy to help THEM pack, however. We don't need anyone around here who makes things worse.

Amen. You totally rawk. Its like you're saying everything I believe! Nice.

And I also have to agree with Eva on several of her posts. You people have a better way of saying what I am trying to convey.

[Yoda117]

So I read in the news today that US companies advertise in Mexico about jobs on poultry farms and whatnot, listing wages that far outstrip anything available to workers in Mexico (when jobs are available.) Opinions?

If they're legal to work here and obey the laws... no problem.

If not, stay the hell out. Fine the companies until it becomes unprofitable for them to use illegal labor. Toss the entire chain of management up to and including the executive chain in jail. Take their cars, their accounts, their property. They're making profit through illegal means... well that can come right back to the shareholders for costing them $ lost on the stock when it comes out that they were using illegal labor.

I'm not uninitiated to the ways of business. I understand that they want Mexican labor to undercut local workers. That said, it's not against the law, so long as the workers are legal to work... even if I don't like it.

And I'm willing to pay an extra .30 for my chicken if it means giving the job to a legal US citizen. If I am going to spend my money, I usually prefer for it to be spent on something kept in the country.

Same with landscapers and waiters. I will gladly pay more if required to put a legal citizen or resident alien to work.

And you know what? Those places that encouraged their people to protest? I have no problem with that... have their SSIDs and paperwork ready when they get back from the protests. And while you're at it, if it turns out that they're illegal, get ready for a nice little fine, and a jail cell if you knew they were illegal. They have a fake SSID or identification? Well my friend, you're helping someone committ identity theft, and get prepped to enjoy that legal malady.

If they're legal to be here, protest away... that's what makes the country great. You can protest anything you want, and we're all good. But if you aren't supposed to be here, well then... let me escort you to the door, cause this party ain't for you :)

[McCorvic Sucks]

There's a lot of stupid things being said, so I won't comment on them all. Especially the superficial and hardly subdued racist ones.

BUT, here's one that always makes me chuckle. Quote: "Oh my gawd, the signs are all in Spanish!"

You may walk into your local Wal-Mart and notice that there are signs in both Spanish and Enlgish? Are they there because the Mexicans wrote an angry spanish letter to wal-mart demanding this? No. These companies have thes signs because it's good for business. Where will these potential customers rather go? A store that has labels and signs they can't read or stores with signs they can? GASP SHOCK FREE MARKET! If you don't like that, go back to Russia you dirty commie.

Road signs: Dunno if you've noticed, but most road signs don't have any words at all! They have symbols! No need to translate those at all. Wow. The signs that do have words in English are for one thing and one thing only: safety. Whether you like it or not, there are a lot of people who don't read/understand English and will drive. You can't change that fact. So, ask yourself the question whether or not you want to do all you can to be safe on the roads.

If you were a smart, intelligent peson, which I know most of you aren't, you'd be the one demanding that there be English/Spanish on road signs.


Another one of my favorites is this: that somehow all the immigration = bad people and terrorists getting in. Certianly, there are good number of criminals that are sneaking into the country with the good-minded immigrants. Fortunately, or good friend Masahiko already gave us the answer to this problem:


my suggestion is, make LEGAL immigration a much easier and simpler process..

Right now, there is a very developed and stream-lined underground railroad (excuse the term, I couldn't think of a better one) used to get immigrants from Mexico to the US. The criminals are taking advantage of this. If more people were allowed legally into the country then this whole illegal system would dry up and it'd be much easier to weedout and catch the bad people. The truth is, it is much harder to become a citizen than it was 150years ago, which the vast majority of our ancestors came from.

All the arguments being made against immigration (and yes, you're arguing against immigration, not just the illegals) here were all said and done when the Irish came, the Italians came, the Polish came, ect ect. But history has proven that all these immigrant groups helped our country and gave us a rich history. This will probably be the only time you'll ever hear me say this, but let's turn back the clock a little.

[Windy*]

You may walk into your local Wal-Mart and notice that there are signs in both Spanish and Enlgish? Are they there because the Mexicans wrote an angry spanish letter to wal-mart demanding this? No. These companies have thes signs because it's good for business. Where will these potential customers rather go? A store that has labels and signs they can't read or stores with signs they can? GASP SHOCK FREE MARKET! If you don't like that, go back to Russia you dirty commie.

No, we'd rather them learn enough English to communicate with Americans in public, just as would be expected of anyone moving to another country to live.


If you were a smart, intelligent peson, which I know most of you aren't, you'd be the one demanding that there be English/Spanish on road signs.

Well, that being said, let's just put EVERY language on EVERY road sign! Safety for all, not just speakers of the native language and that new secondary language going around. Why even bother being selective now? Can't bend the laws for just one group, you know.

I think personal attacks here are quite inappropriate and unnecessary. Don't insult our intelligence, thank you. You may not agree, but saying most of us aren't intelligent because of what we think is just childish, now isn't it. :)

[Eva]

If you were a smart, intelligent peson, which I know most of you aren't, you'd be the one demanding that there be English/Spanish on road signs.

bilingual signs are all well and good, but when happens if it's only in Spanish? This happens more than you'd think it would. Thanks for playing, though.

Sings are printed bilingual in areas with a lot of people from a certain nationality, but really, if people (legal or illegal) are gonna live here, learn the language, please. Even if it's after you come.

[McCorvic Sucks]

No, we'd rather them learn enough English to communicate with Americans in public, just as would be expected of anyone moving to another country to live.

Given time, they will. Just like every other immigrant group in history has. Relax. And still, FREE MARKET ECONOMY.




Well, that being said, let's just put EVERY language on EVERY road sign! Safety for all, not just speakers of the native language and that new secondary language going around. Why even bother being selective now? Can't bend the laws for just one group, you know.

I think personal attacks here are quite inappropriate and unnecessary. Don't insult our intelligence, thank you. You may not agree, but saying most of us aren't intelligent because of what we think is just childish, now isn't it. :)


Basic economics, again. You can't spend a billion trillion dollars for something that may save 1 life every one hundered years. You can't do it and it isn't worth it (as grim as that may sound). But, admittingly, there are a good number more Spanish-only speakers than any other group. That's the difference.

Also, immigrant groups tend to "huddle" together. That's why we have "china towns" and what not. It isn't much of a stretch to have dual-language signs in areas with high density of a certain immigrant group. China town= chinese road signs. High spanish-speaking towns = spanish road signs.




bilingual signs are all well and good, but when happens if it's only in Spanish? This happens more than you'd think it would. Thanks for playing, though.

1. Are you talking about road signs or store/private signs?

If a road sign: Show me proof and then write an angry letter about it.

If a store/private sign: Free market economy. Oh noez. I live in an area that is mostly latino and many of the stores around here have no English anywhere (one store actually has the price tags with "peso" equivilant things so people know how much they're spending exactly). But I go into these little stores and, most of the time, the clerks and owners speak very clear English and and much friendlier and honest than "American" shopkeeps who speak English.

And most of them are learning English. There is certainly no collective latino mind that every immigrant is connected too. These aren't the Borg we're talking about. But once this wave of immigration ends, which it will as all immigration trends do, you will eventually run across fewer and fewer spanish-only speakers.

[Yoda117]

You may walk into your local Wal-Mart and notice that there are signs in both Spanish and Enlgish? Are they there because the Mexicans wrote an angry spanish letter to wal-mart demanding this? No. These companies have thes signs because it's good for business. Where will these potential customers rather go? A store that has labels and signs they can't read or stores with signs they can? GASP SHOCK FREE MARKET! If you don't like that, go back to Russia you dirty commie.



actually there have been several cases where groups have sued to have signs redone in Spanish. And ones where it was obviously nothing more than a politcial agenda. This is a straw man argument, as no one in their right mind would have signs that alienated a good part of their customer base. However, when I go into a Walmart in Reston, VA and find that there are no ENLGISH signs in there... well, let's just say that if we can't play by the same rules, then let's use the ones that we've already got.

and before we go there, SprawlMart got dinged $5Mil last year for using illegal labor... and facing another possible fine again this year for a recent rash of stings in the NE.



Road signs: Dunno if you've noticed, but most road signs don't have any words at all! They have symbols! No need to translate those at all. Wow. The signs that do have words in English are for one thing and one thing only: safety. Whether you like it or not, there are a lot of people who don't read/understand English and will drive. You can't change that fact. So, ask yourself the question whether or not you want to do all you can to be safe on the roads.



you made the comment about turning back the clock. The immigrants back during the industrial revolution had to have a semblance of English knowledge to get around, so I don't see why that standard can't still apply today.




If you were a smart, intelligent peson, which I know most of you aren't, you'd be the one demanding that there be English/Spanish on road signs.



So... I'm supposed to learn Spanish to accomidate these folks? No thanks. And there is a large percentage of Americans working in India, China, Spain, etc. I don't see them putting up any English signs for me. Oh yeah, most parts of Mexico adhere to MPH, so this is a moot point anyway. Every state also has drivers instructions in Spanish, with a good majority of the road signs and their meaning. I think they can figure it out.



Another one of my favorites is this: that somehow all the immigration = bad people and terrorists getting in. Certianly, there are good number of criminals that are sneaking into the country with the good-minded immigrants. Fortunately, or good friend Masahiko already gave us the answer to this problem:


No, immigration isn't bad at all. It is the lifeblood of our country.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS BAD. Please note the first word. But let's ask ourselves some questions. We have some illegal immigrants coming in. A higher % of them when compared to other groups are going to end up in prision for comitting crimes (not counting the fact that they already comitted one by coming here illegally).

Now let's jump onto the identity fraud issue. A good % of these fine folks are helping to perpetuate this by using stolen SSIDs to work.

I will keep the additional drain put on our social systems to support these folks and save it for a better arugment.

You are correct though, we have a well-oiled smuggling machine at work. When we let foreign military cross our border with impunity, have cities and politicians that are willing to prosecute FLEOs for doing their job. Instituting "catch and release" programs, trusting illegal immigrants to do the right thing and go home of their own accord. Offering them free education and services. Yeah, we make the coyote's job a hell of a lot easier. BTW: try that in any other country and see how you do.


The truth is, it is much harder to become a citizen than it was 150years ago, which the vast majority of our ancestors came from.

All the arguments being made against immigration (and yes, you're arguing against immigration, not just the illegals) here were all said and done when the Irish came, the Italians came, the Polish came, ect ect. But history has proven that all these immigrant groups helped our country and gave us a rich history. This will probably be the only time you'll ever hear me say this, but let's turn back the clock a little.



Again, if we turned back the clock a little, most of them would have been turned away.

And my ancestors were here a looong time before then thank you very much.

But since you are such a student of history, let's look at the rampant racism faced by ancestory about 100 years ago. That's right, seeing signs telling you that your services weren't wanted because you were Irish, or Polish or Chinese. Knowing that the only way you are going to succeed in society is to integrate, learn the language and customs, to stand up on your own feet. Being refused for minor ailments for fear of spreading disease (for things ranging from tuberculous to the chicken pox, to physical deformities). No clause for religious or political persecution.

You sure you want the clock rolled back...?

For those who come here, citizenship is not a cracker jack prize. You have to earn it. I am not expected to just be given citizenship in NZ just because I want to live there. I have to learn the history, have $250K+ in assets and jump through additional hoops. I think that is a bit much for here, but I don't think that it's too much to ask that you make the effort to learn our history, to follow our laws, to assimilate as best you can into American culture, while maintaining your own culturial identity, and to follow our laws. I'm not seeing this, and I know that I'm not alone.

Yeah, earning your citizenship is hard, but we make it very easy to stay here while you attempt to get it. I do think that the numerical limit should be increased, but this is not a come one, come all deal.

[HyperFaerie]

Given time, they will. Just like every other immigrant group in history has. Relax. And still, FREE MARKET ECONOMY.

This is where you're wrong. Most of the illegal immigrants where I live flat out refuse to learn English. Yes, they refuse. There have been, and still are, places here that offer FREE English lessons. They choose not to go.

I watched as one of the English teachers was passing out flyers written in about three or four different languages (I know for a fact that at least Korean, Chinese and Spanish were on these papers). I watched as the illegals TORE THE PAPERS UP and THREW them at the poor woman.

A girl I knew in High School was embarissed by her mother who refused to learn English. Her reasoning? She didn't come to America to speak English. If some one wanted to talk to her, they'd speak Korean to her.

So no, some, if not most, will not learn if given time. Either becuase they choose not to learn or because they can't learn (IE: Expensive, work, what ever the reason)

Like I said, I don't care about immigrants. They can stay, they can be kicked out, what ever. It doesn't matter what the government does, or what the American population wants done because there is always going to be illegal immigrants here. It's the type of country we live in.

[McCorvic Sucks]

Wow. I got through the first half of your post and noticed that your replys and the comments you were quoting and nothing to do with each other :/

Here's a few quickies, just for shows:


1. 'The immigrants back during the industrial revolution had to have a semblance of English knowledge to get around, so I don't see why that standard can't still apply today."

Actually, most of them didn't.


2. The story about the girl who was embarassed that her mom wouldn't learn english? You just proved my point. The kid WAS learning English. Her mom will die, and her kids will learn English too. Wow, one generation and the problem is solved.

Please read my post before you guys try to respond to them.

[Yoda117]

Read them?

Hell I used them as quotes and refuted them

[McCorvic Sucks]

Read them?

Hell I used them as quotes and refuted them


Sigh, one last one before I leave this thread and let you spin around in circles.

I said: "Having dual language signs is a safty issue"

You said: "Oh my god, now I have to accomodate themz?!"

You missed the point by: Thinking that somehow you had to learn spanish? Wut?

[Eva]

It sure looks like she replied to the quotes she used. Should we print them in 5 other languages so you get them?

[Yoda117]

No... actually take the time to read please.

what I said was that most of the signs are universal for the north american continent. And that by using your own example I would have to learn Spanish since several areas would choose to use Spanish only signs.

Your point is irrelevant since every state in the union teaches the course in several languages and offers the books in several languages. They already know what the signs on the road mean. And if not, by your own words in "turning the clock back", they'd better damn well learn them... as most people's ancestors had to do when they got here

But again, MPH is still used in Mexico, and most all Central America, so it's a moot point. Numbers are the same, as are most of the symbols (slight difference in merging lanes if I recall, but only the use of a diamond in the US vs a square in southern countries and PR)

[HyperFaerie]

Wow. I got through the first half of your post and noticed that your replys and the comments you were quoting and nothing to do with each other :/

Here's a quickie, just for shows:

The story about the girl who was embarassed that her mom wouldn't learn english? You just proved my point. The kid WAS learning English. Her mom will die, and her kids will learn English too. Wow, one generation and the problem is solved.

Please read my post before you guys try to respond to them.

Yes, one generation. But what about the others?

The way you responded with your "Given time" remark made it seem as if eventually there will only be English spoken in this country.

So long as there are immigrants (legal or not) there will always be different languages. Given time, the amount of different languages spoken in this country will just increase.

And please stop responding to us as if we're all simple minded children. Most of us are adults here. Respond to us as such. Theres no need to imply we're all stupid just because we have different views from yours. It's crap like this that starts drama and gets threads like this locked.

[McCorvic Sucks]

Your point is irrelevant since every state in the union teaches the course in several languages and offers the books in several languages. They already know what the signs on the road mean.

I said that. Most have no words at all! It was in that first reply of mine. Also, I'm pretty sure the issue that are illegals who probably didn't take the official state driving course. And the few that do have only english like "SLOW DOWN SCHOOL ZONE" (some don't have the simple lady and kid crossing) are there so kids don't get ran over. Having another sign in Spanish beneath that sign hurts no one.

[Eva]

Like it has already been said, Spanish with English is fine, but a lot of places have only Spanish. If they're not expected to understand things in our language, why are we expected to know theirs?

[Tamu Ali]

I think if you step into a english speakin nation you should learn the language. no ifs, ands or buts. like the US national anthem it should remain in english, this is a english speaking country...and if u have a problem with it, then leave. i always thought the US were too nice on immigrants...while there are people that have been here for years (native americans and blacks) get the wrong deal the majority of the time. In other words those who are in charge were more worried about those people then the ones they let so freely on US soil.


and oh, yes the protest was stupid.


If they're not expected to understand things in our language, why are we expected to know theirs?

yes, i agree with you on that one.

[Yoda117]

I said that. Most have no words at all! It was in that first reply of mine. Also, I'm pretty sure the issue that are illegals who probably didn't take the official state driving course. And the few that do have only english like "SLOW DOWN SCHOOL ZONE" (some don't have the simple lady and kid crossing) are there so kids don't get ran over. Having another sign in Spanish beneath that sign hurts no one.


So I guess that they shouldn't be here should they?

Oh... but that means that they're now breaking the law again since by your argument, most of them aren't driving with a license

And again, most of the signs are universal in their symbolism. So despite the flaws in your argument, there is little water to hold in the first place. And yes, there is a symbol of a little figure with a backpack crossing a road for the school zone signs, in addition to the large blinking 15 mph sign mounted (usually on the same pole)

Quick edit: just to toss one more thought out there. You don't have to take a DL exam or course to get the booklets required to take the tests. Just walk in and take them for your own reading pleasure. Goes towards that whole integration theme I was running with a while back there

[HyperFaerie]

Quick edit: just to toss one more thought out there. You don't have to take a DL exam or course to get the booklets required to take the tests. Just walk in and take them for your own reading pleasure. Goes towards that whole integration theme I was running with a while back there

Said books are also bi-lingual (English/Spanish...at least at the DMV here). So there really isn't any excuse for them NOT to know the rules of the road, or what the pretty pictures mean.

[Yoda117]

I think if you step into a english speakin nation you should learn the language. no ifs, ands or buts. like the US national anthem it should remain in english, this is a english speaking country...





Hold on a second. I agree that since English is the predominant language that it should be a requirement to learn (nothing against speaking your own language, but let's find a common tongue).

However, Congress approved a Spanish version of the National Anthem back around WWI. I have no problem saying it in Spanish.

I DO have a problem with it being re-written and passed off as the genuine article, as was recently the case

[Tamu Ali]

Hold on a second. I agree that since English is the predominant language that it should be a requirement to learn (nothing against speaking your own language, but let's find a common tongue).

However, Congress approved a Spanish version of the National Anthem back around WWI. I have no problem saying it in Spanish.

I DO have a problem with it being re-written and passed off as the genuine article, as was recently the case

i still don't think the anthem should be changed or re-written. but like i said before immigrants get too much lee-way. and I disagree with the Congress for approving the Spanish version.

[Yoda117]

most, if not everyone involved with that is dead now. I don't think they'll mind much. :)

But the fact remains...

[Tamu Ali]

most, if not everyone involved with that is dead now. I don't think they'll mind much. :)

But the fact remains...

WWI and b4
that's when the US were screwed up letting these people get away w/things. "THE HOME Of THE FREE!" yeah, right.
they never let the blacks or native americans get away w/stuff like that the people who had been in this country the longest, the natives being 1st...and the blacks 3rd...then why should the immigrants get such different treatment??

[Yoda117]

trust me, things were a LOT more strict back then, compared to now

it was more free then, compared to now

I'm not worried with how other groups are treated, so long as we're all treated the same under the law, as legal citizens whom have earned, or been born into the right.

[Matt Alan]

I would just like to say, that while Chinese may be the most spoken language in the world, as well as teh oldest still in use, its English that is the widest-spread language, and eventually, even if it takes a few hundred years, its likely to be the entire WORLD's first language.

Just thought I'd share that little tidbit that you may or may not find useful.

('you" being whoever reads this post. :D)

[Tamu Ali]

trust me, things were a LOT more strict back then, compared to now

it was more free then, compared to now

I'm not worried with how other groups are treated, so long as we're all treated the same under the law, as legal citizens whom have earned, or been born into the right.

we aren't.

[Zankoku no Yami]

Wow, Inuyashafan10 just proved to me exactly how stupid people can be. Amazing.

Illegal immigrants drive down our wages. Nuff said.

About this not speaking english stuff. Israel isnt even anywhere near America and yet they have an english class from 4th to 12th grade. Thats TWO languages to learn. Yet they do it! These immigrants have no excuse to not learn our langauge.

[Chris Nagy]

bilingual signs are all well and good, but when happens if it's only in Spanish? This happens more than you'd think it would. Thanks for playing, though. It happens more than you'd think, because naturally I would not expect it to happen anywhere. That said, this sort of thing happens only in extremely ethnic areas; which are just the sort of places that need to be integrated. The language problem works itself out in one generation (and for those of you who think that isn't soon enough, jesus, have a little foresight,) except for these areas-- where the parents speak spanish, the kids will speak spanish and, without "outside" interference," their kids will speak exclusively Spanish.


I'm supposed to learn Spanish to accomidate these folks? No thanks. I don't know how many languages you speak, so this may not apply to you, but in general Americans learn one language fluently (English, one would hope) and the basics of a second language (depending on your school and if you continue on to higher education.) Compare this to most of Europe, where students learn 2-3 additional languages. I'm not saying you need to learn Spanish to accomodate people, but increased ability to communicate is never bad.


Now let's jump onto the identity fraud issue. A good % of these fine folks are helping to perpetuate this by using stolen SSIDs to work. But this one is a bit of a mystery to me. Given the combination of numbers that make up the social security number (and given that none start with 0, I think,) there are a possible 3.5 Billion combinations. There are currently 300 million people in the United States, and I'm not sure how many people have died since FDR's New Deal programs created Social Security, but every time I've heard the issue argued by judges, professors, politicians, etc, the point was about Fake SSNs, not Stolen SSNs.


And I'm willing to pay an extra .30 for my chicken if it means giving the job to a legal US citizen. If I am going to spend my money, I usually prefer for it to be spent on something kept in the country.

Same with landscapers and waiters. I will gladly pay more if required to put a legal citizen or resident alien to work. You will gladly pay, most people will not gladly pay. Either way, it is immaterial; cost of living would increase slightly.


This is where you're wrong. Most of the illegal immigrants where I live flat out refuse to learn English. Things are different depending on where you live, that said it's not wrong so much as it doesn't apply near you. Where I live, migrant farm workers do what they can to learn English because it helps them to better provide for their family.


I think if you step into a english speakin nation you should learn the language. Everytime I see someone say this, I think back to how our national language failed to be German by one vote. Would have made WW2 a little strange, though. Immigrants in this country would do well to learn basic English, enough to get around. But no one is forced to learn any language for anyone else's convenience. You simply have to accept the consequences and missed opportunities from not being able to communicate.


i always thought the US were too nice on immigrants...while there are people that have been here for years (native americans and blacks) get the wrong deal the majority of the time. You can remove Native Americans from the group of that "get" the wrong deal. They recieved a horrible deal a long time ago. Through deserved reparations, their own sovereign states, and so forth, they very much do not "get" a raw deal. They got a bad deal, they now get a very good deal.

As for blacks, the argument I often see (but do not adhere to) is that they've done very little to elevate themselves. While racism exists, it is no longer institutionalized. The fact that other groups who were heavily discriminated against manage to establish themselves in a few generations also tends to be a point that most people level against blacks. Personally, I think inner city education needs a boost, but that's just me. I don't feel that there is a preference shown to the illegals, it is more of a "let's pretend they don't exist and wonder why our produce is nice and cheap, and our lawn is so nicely cut."


Oh... but that means that they're now breaking the law again since by your argument, most of them aren't driving with a license Okay, now I have to ask: aside from the fact that you are against all illegals (correct me if I am wrong,) most of your posts seem to concern the ones that continue to break laws while they are here. The SSN thing is handled by the companies that hire illegals. Day labourers are paid in cash and don't pay taxes on that, thus never needing a SSN (and while that is a crime in and of itself, you'd also have to go after anyone with undisclosed income; babysitters, tutors, people with yard sales, etc.) My question, then, is: do you mean to present the opinion that a majority of illegal aliens continue to break the law after coming here? And do your opinions also regard those who do not continue to break the law after entering the country?


Illegal immigrants drive down our wages. Nuff said. Please link the study that shows that. The only way I can possibly think to make that connection is that cheap labour drives prices down, lower prices equals a lower cost of living, and minimum wage is somehow derived from the cost of living. I can, however, try and dig up my old Economics book that has a study showing that increasing the minimum wage tends to increase the cost of goods disproportionately; i.e., you are being paid more but you can buy less with it.


About this not speaking english stuff. Israel isnt even anywhere near America and yet they have an english class from 4th to 12th grade. Thats TWO languages to learn. Yet they do it! These immigrants have no excuse to not learn our langauge. Not even touching the fact that England is "over there" (by which I mean the other side of the Atlantic,) you know, where we got the language... most of the rest of the world learns multiple languages for many years through their childhood education. Americans barely learn 1.2 languages through highschool (and that number is probably closer to .8, considering how badly most Americans can mangle English.) Note the part bolded: kids are learning multiple languages. Immigrants come here as adults, but their kids will learn English (unless they live in a highly ethnic area.) Thus your argument is a nonsequitor, the two parts have nothing to do with one another, or as I like to call it argumentum ad nonsensem.

[Yoda117]

Looks like a quote tunnel here, let's try to fix that.



It happens more than you'd think, because naturally I would not expect it to happen anywhere. That said, this sort of thing happens only in extremely ethnic areas; which are just the sort of places that need to be integrated. The language problem works itself out in one generation (and for those of you who think that isn't soon enough, jesus, have a little foresight,) except for these areas-- where the parents speak spanish, the kids will speak spanish and, without "outside" interference," their kids will speak exclusively Spanish.


Actually this ISN't happening, and things such as California mandates to have Spanish speaking schools (not bilingual mind you, SPANISH speaking) negates integration. I have no problem with bilingual structures, I think it helps both sides. However, now you have a new issue, what about the Chinese, Polish, Arabic. We keep going bilingual for one, we have to do it for all, and in the end we don't have a common language. What you fail to understand is that with this argument, a good majority of the proponents want to solely speak Spanish, which is not a good thing. Big issue out here right now on the East Coast with a few groups that do not want to speak English at all. It's not that they want a separate language to help them, they just don't want to speak English, don't want it in their lives.

I'm sorry, but you don't get it both ways. I'm pretty accomidating to other cultures, but you need to learn to integrate, just as others need to learn more about your culture. I see a hell of a lot of the latter, and precious little of the former.




I don't know how many languages you speak, so this may not apply to you, but in general Americans learn one language fluently (English, one would hope) and the basics of a second language (depending on your school and if you continue on to higher education.) Compare this to most of Europe, where students learn 2-3 additional languages. I'm not saying you need to learn Spanish to accomodate people, but increased ability to communicate is never bad.



On this one, I couldn't agree more. If I had my way, everyone would be required to learn at least one additional language both in HS and College, with a minimum of 12 credits going towards their non-degree credit requirements (probably require us to raise the # of credits required for graduation, but I can live with that). I'd also require all HS students to go abroad for a minimum of two semesters, one of them must be in a non-English speaking country.

I think people would be better able to communicate in their own native tongue, and gain the added benefit of appreciating their country a lot more. I know that I've gained a lot through my travels, and the additional lanugages I speak have helped my understanding of the English tongue.




But this one is a bit of a mystery to me. Given the combination of numbers that make up the social security number (and given that none start with 0, I think,) there are a possible 3.5 Billion combinations. There are currently 300 million people in the United States, and I'm not sure how many people have died since FDR's New Deal programs created Social Security, but every time I've heard the issue argued by judges, professors, politicians, etc, the point was about Fake SSNs, not Stolen SSNs.



Well I can tell you that it is indeed a problem. Yep you have a great chance of picking out a SSID, but when you have to match it to your birthday (which has often been used as a catch for the past 15 years), then your odds of faking it go down dramatically. I don't mind hearing the arguments of judges, professors, politicians, etc. But you'll never hear that from someone in information security, or law enforcement, or a bank's fraud dept. I've worked in one of those fields before and let me tell you, the idea of identity theft started as a way to help illegal immigrants get work. It wasn't long before several of them were trying to also use the welfare/social systems, and eventually people (not just illegals, but of those caught they take up a disproportinate %) used it to get credit cards, access and create bank accounts.

Anyone who says that this isn't an issue is simply unaware of the facts.





You will gladly pay, most people will not gladly pay. Either way, it is immaterial; cost of living would increase slightly.



I'd rather pay it for getting legal labor then pay the additional 20% currently attributed to foreign oil prices. Yes, costs would go up, but most studies have shown that it would be minimal. However, let's cut that from the additional taxes spent to house a disproportionate % of them in prision, and the costs used to have them in our social systems. Sounds like a fair trade to me.



Things are different depending on where you live, that said it's not wrong so much as it doesn't apply near you. Where I live, migrant farm workers do what they can to learn English because it helps them to better provide for their family.



So long as they're legal to be here, more power to them!




Everytime I see someone say this, I think back to how our national language failed to be German by one vote. Would have made WW2 a little strange, though. Immigrants in this country would do well to learn basic English, enough to get around. But no one is forced to learn any language for anyone else's convenience. You simply have to accept the consequences and missed opportunities from not being able to communicate.


Again, no argument here. Reason for German being voted on is that nearly 30% of the US population has some German ancestry. It was more strongly pronounced during the time when it was voted on.

I have no issue with someone trying to learn the language, but as stated before there are several groups trying to keep Engilish 100% out of the environment, and this I do have a problem with. Again, you can have and cherish your culture... you should, it's what makes this country great. But you should integrate to be a memer of ours as well.



You can remove Native Americans from the group of that "get" the wrong deal. They recieved a horrible deal a long time ago. Through deserved reparations, their own sovereign states, and so forth, they very much do not "get" a raw deal. They got a bad deal, they now get a very good deal.


I'd rather trade it for the number of tribes completely wiped off the face of the earth, the land stolen from them, and the number of crimes comitted against them. Study your history, as they too were enslaved to work as the Africans did. It doesn't get mentioned much, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen.



Okay, now I have to ask: aside from the fact that you are against all illegals (correct me if I am wrong,) most of your posts seem to concern the ones that continue to break laws while they are here.



Wouldn't being here in the first place count as continuing to break the laws since they, you know... aren't supposed to be here?

Okay, well it also deals with the ones sucking on the education system, social systems, refusing to integrate, etc. The fact of the matter is that they are here illegally. Yes, I do have an issue with ones that continue to break the law while they are here, but the fact of the matter is that if you come here illegally, then you are guess what? An illegal.

Kinda defeats the purpose to tell me how great of a citizen you are when your first act was to break the law.

While we're at it, why are they so upset about not being able to vote? I mena, they didn't take the time to become citizens. In all the PC-based jargon I've seen thusfar, not once has the term citizen been used. So why pray tell are they so interested in voting in a land where they don't want to follow the most basic rule of becoming an citizen? I don't recally reading anywhere in any law stating that just because you're here, you get to to vote. I do read about citizens being allowed to vote, but nothing about someone who crossed the border without permission.

Seriously, now that we have such a huge illegal immigration problem, they're demanding rights. Right to vote, right to work, right to education, etc. Yep, we do have those rights, for our CITIZENS. You know, I really tire of the arguments that aren't willing to identify what illegal immigration wants, and is taking from society and balance that against what it provides. You'll find that we give a lot more than we get.




The only way I can possibly think to make that connection is that cheap labour drives prices down, lower prices equals a lower cost of living, and minimum wage is somehow derived from the cost of living. I can, however, try and dig up my old Economics book that has a study showing that increasing the minimum wage tends to increase the cost of goods disproportionately; i.e., you are being paid more but you can buy less with it.



Well, let's couple that with the increased savings gained from not having to educate or provide medical or social support to illegal immigrants. While you're at it, how about taking a look at all the studies that study the problem. I notice how every so often, I hear the one from UCLA about how illegals contribute $1000 per head to the economy, but I never see the ones cited from MIT, Purdue, PSU, Northwestern, or Wharton that state anywhere from a $3500 to $5000 drain per illegal immigrant on the economy.

Please tell me why if illegal immigration is so great, that Europe is now having major issues with the problem. Why Mexico has a huge wall on it's Southern border, why Canada and Austrailia are strengthening their systems to make it difficult to support illegal immigration. I mean, by your logic, wouldn't they want to welcome these people with open arms since they do the job that others can't.



Not even touching the fact that England is "over there" (by which I mean the other side of the Atlantic,) you know, where we got the language... most of the rest of the world learns multiple languages for many years through their childhood education. Americans barely learn 1.2 languages through highschool (and that number is probably closer to .8, considering how badly most Americans can mangle English.) Note the part bolded: kids are learning multiple languages. Immigrants come here as adults, but their kids will learn English (unless they live in a highly ethnic area.) Thus your argument is a nonsequitor, the two parts have nothing to do with one another, or as I like to call it argumentum ad nonsensem.

Well that's what I would refer to your arguments as, but I've gotten used to it. I have no issue with having people learn multiple languages. I think it helps to strengthen relations AND to give them a better understanding of their native tongue (especially with Germanic and Latin based languages, from which English is based). However, to learn another language simply for appeasment of a group that does not want to integrate into society is unacceptable.

Give me all the statistics you want, and I'll be happy to counter with pictures from the immigrant protests with signs making reference to la reconquista and la rez.

And this doesn't answer anything regarding the actual comments that I stated; that immigration is just fine, but do it legally. Keeping your cultural identity is fine with me, and it should be cherished, but you need to integrate to our society and American culture as well. You chose to come here, you need to honor our land and heritage as much as we ought to honor yours.

[Chris Nagy]

Actually this ISN't happening, and things such as California mandates to have Spanish speaking schools (not bilingual mind you, SPANISH speaking) negates integration. I have no problem with bilingual structures, I think it helps both sides. However, now you have a new issue, what about the Chinese, Polish, Arabic. We keep going bilingual for one, we have to do it for all, and in the end we don't have a common language. What you fail to understand is that with this argument, a good majority of the proponents want to solely speak Spanish, which is not a good thing. Big issue out here right now on the East Coast with a few groups that do not want to speak English at all. It's not that they want a separate language to help them, they just don't want to speak English, don't want it in their lives. That would be a California problem. Education is not an expressed responsibility of the Federal Government, and thus it became part of a State's set of powers. That said, it has no effect on the United States as a whole. As for the groups that don't want to speak English, that is their perogative, but they should not expect any support from the Government in that endeavour.


I'm sorry, but you don't get it both ways. I'm pretty accomidating to other cultures, but you need to learn to integrate, just as others need to learn more about your culture. I see a hell of a lot of the latter, and precious little of the former. If someone adamantly refuses to, there is little that can be done. The point, though, is that their refusal to adopt English should not be met with concessions from the government to make their time any easier.


On this one, I couldn't agree more. If I had my way, everyone would be required to learn at least one additional language both in HS and College, with a minimum of 12 credits going towards their non-degree credit requirements (probably require us to raise the # of credits required for graduation, but I can live with that). I'd also require all HS students to go abroad for a minimum of two semesters, one of them must be in a non-English speaking country. If only Education weren't always on the short end of the budgeting stick. This country would be a much better place to live if only its population were more educated.


Well I can tell you that it is indeed a problem. Yep you have a great chance of picking out a SSID, but when you have to match it to your birthday (which has often been used as a catch for the past 15 years), then your odds of faking it go down dramatically. I don't mind hearing the arguments of judges, professors, politicians, etc. But you'll never hear that from someone in information security, or law enforcement, or a bank's fraud dept. I've worked in one of those fields before and let me tell you, the idea of identity theft started as a way to help illegal immigrants get work. It wasn't long before several of them were trying to also use the welfare/social systems, and eventually people (not just illegals, but of those caught they take up a disproportinate %) used it to get credit cards, access and create bank accounts.

Anyone who says that this isn't an issue is simply unaware of the facts.If it is an issue, it is one that is rarely talked about or mentioned in passing. I've only lived in South Florida for about 15 years, read the occasional article, attend the occasional roundtable discussion, and it simply hasn't come up. The issue of falsified SSNs has, but in regard to theft I can only say that I've never heard nor seen evidence of it. Evidence would be welcome.


I'd rather pay it for getting legal labor then pay the additional 20% currently attributed to foreign oil prices. Yes, costs would go up, but most studies have shown that it would be minimal. However, let's cut that from the additional taxes spent to house a disproportionate % of them in prision, and the costs used to have them in our social systems. Sounds like a fair trade to me.Illegal Immigrants (from Mexico, roughly 32,000) in Federal Prison represent about .5% of the Illegal Immigrant population (http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp#1,) though I'm not sure how many reside in State Prisons. Arizona, in particular, seems pack a large amount of illegals into its prisons. The question, I guess, is what do you mean by a disproportionate %? I'm curious about the foreign oil statistic, as well.


So long as they're legal to be here, more power to them!
I wish, they are mostly undocumented.


I have no issue with someone trying to learn the language, but as stated before there are several groups trying to keep Engilish 100% out of the environment, and this I do have a problem with. Again, you can have and cherish your culture... you should, it's what makes this country great. But you should integrate to be a memer of ours as well. Groups can try whatever they wish to keep themselves seperate, so long as they realize the consequences of their isolationist attitude. I feel it becomes a problem when the government makes concessions towards an (insert non-English language only) environment, but this seems to be a problem more with legal immigrants and their citizen children.


I'd rather trade it for the number of tribes completely wiped off the face of the earth, the land stolen from them, and the number of crimes comitted against them. Study your history, as they too were enslaved to work as the Africans did. It doesn't get mentioned much, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. What you'd rather have is hardly relevant, though as part Cherokee I can agree with your sentiment. Native Americans were used as slaves until they were nearly depleted, though I think this was more an issue in South America. I believe a spanish monk whose name escapes me suggested the use of Africans, as they were already acclimated to European disease. The point of the matter is that to put Native Americans (of today) in the same boat as Blacks (today) in regards to getting a bad deal is a bit silly.


Wouldn't being here in the first place count as continuing to break the laws since they, you know... aren't supposed to be here?No, not really. That would be like saying I have committed theft, but since I haven't been caught I am still committing theft. It's one count of theft, committed, not committing. I may not have broken the law since, and while I could be pulled it for theft, it would be because I committed the crime, not because I kept committing it.


Okay, well it also deals with the ones sucking on the education system, social systems, refusing to integrate, etc. The fact of the matter is that they are here illegally. Yes, I do have an issue with ones that continue to break the law while they are here, but the fact of the matter is that if you come here illegally, then you are guess what? An illegal.So there are no shades of grey in this one for you?


Kinda defeats the purpose to tell me how great of a citizen you are when your first act was to break the law. For the otherwise law-abiding individual, I'm inclined to chalk that up to desperation. Though I doubt I'll ever find myself in the situation, if I am given the choice of committing a non-serious crime or not being able to take care of my family, chances are I'll commit the crime.


While we're at it, why are they so upset about not being able to vote? I mena, they didn't take the time to become citizens. In all the PC-based jargon I've seen thusfar, not once has the term citizen been used. So why pray tell are they so interested in voting in a land where they don't want to follow the most basic rule of becoming an citizen? I don't recally reading anywhere in any law stating that just because you're here, you get to to vote. I do read about citizens being allowed to vote, but nothing about someone who crossed the border without permission. Because they are ignorant. Even coming here legally, they wouldn't be allowed to vote. There are problems with every extreme, and the extreme end of the pro-illegal camp has problems remembering what benefits are only given to citizens. But, like I said, this is an extreme. It is easy to lump them all together but you have illegals that do not abuse the system and do not expect the things that the Illegal Immigrant Rights groups protest for.


Seriously, now that we have such a huge illegal immigration problem, they're demanding rights. Right to vote, right to work, right to education, etc. Yep, we do have those rights, for our CITIZENS. You know, I really tire of the arguments that aren't willing to identify what illegal immigration wants, and is taking from society and balance that against what it provides. You'll find that we give a lot more than we get. Just because they want it does not mean that they will get it. I don't care if they want the right to vote-- it will never happen. They can protest to their hearts content, and they'll never get the right to vote as an illegal or even legal alien. They have a right to the protections of law when they are in our country, but they do not have the priviliges of being a citizen, and no amount of wanting is going to change that. That's why I never bring it up; because a it is immaterial to what is and what can happen.

Their participation in the education system does cause a drain, but if their children are citizens by birth then does that really count? We can say that those kids wouldn't be here as citizens if their parents weren't here illegally, but the kid is here and is a citizen. I've looked at alot of studies, and the amount that illegals contribute and drain varies in each one. I feel certain that for every study you can dig up giving one result, I can dig one up to the contrary. It's the nature of statistics, with enough data, you can prove anything.


Please tell me why if illegal immigration is so great, that Europe is now having major issues with the problem. Why Mexico has a huge wall on it's Southern border, why Canada and Austrailia are strengthening their systems to make it difficult to support illegal immigration. I mean, by your logic, wouldn't they want to welcome these people with open arms since they do the job that others can't. If that's what you've gotten from my posts, then you are completely mistaken. I've never said illegal immigration is good. I've said the borders need tightening, I've said that they should come here legally. The issue is in regard to what we should do with the people already here. Furthermore, this wasn't even directed at you, I wanted to know the source of the poster's information since it was so powerful that he felt the need to assert that his statement was the be-all end-all in regards to the effects of illegal immigrants on wages.


Well that's what I would refer to your arguments as, but I've gotten used to it. I'm sorry if you see it that way, but I generally go over my arguments pretty well and make sure not to commit any obvious fallacies. That said, pointing at an education system in Israel and proclaiming that since their 9-18 year olds can learn two languages, the adult immigrants who come here have no excuse for failing to learn English is absurd. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.


However, to learn another language simply for appeasment of a group that does not want to integrate into society is unacceptable.
The government will never force you to learn another language. States like California may try, apparently, but the courts will settle it. There are pros and cons to everything, someone who owns a shop and operates it completely in Spanish is well within his rights, but he will lose customers who don't speak the language. Integration is an important choice, but it is ultimately a choice. And those who choose not to must live with the consequences and understand that their rights are not being denied so much as they themselves cannot grasp the system necessary to exercise those rights, due to their own isolation.


Give me all the statistics you want, and I'll be happy to counter with pictures from the immigrant protests with signs making reference to la reconquista and la rez. You'll notice that I use statistics only as a last resort, because as I mentioned above anyone can come up with statistics. But for every sign you show me, I can't show you plenty of people who have nothing to do with this nonsense; because they make no waves and cause no controversy, instead focusing on providing for their family.


You chose to come here, you need to honor our land and heritage as much as we ought to honor yours. The hard truth is that no one needs to honor anyone's cultural background. No one needs to integrate, but they do need to realize that the consequences of such a choice are missed opportunities that no amount of protesting are going to change.

[Tamu Ali]

As for blacks, the argument I often see (but do not adhere to) is that they've done very little to elevate themselves. While racism exists, it is no longer institutionalized. The fact that other groups who were heavily discriminated against manage to establish themselves in a few generations also tends to be a point that most people level against blacks. Personally, I think inner city education needs a boost, but that's just me. I don't feel that there is a preference shown to the illegals, it is more of a "let's pretend they don't exist and wonder why our produce is nice and cheap, and our lawn is so nicely cut."


OFF TOPIC:

actually they have done a lot to elevate themselves and gave alot to world. but in opinion you may be seeing only one side of things. there are those who have done considerable well but they aren't truly being talked about as heavily. though as a member of this race it does tick me off that they have still maintained the slave mentality. in the 60's, 70's and before blacks were doing quite well evolving but soon became relaxed....and then the basically became dumb asses (I personally blame rap. and 2 i think Bill Cosby was right.) and the school system isn't always to blame...it's mostly the upbringing...dumbasses raising dumbasses and the cycle continues (that isn't in just black culture mind you). but like I've always said the ones that are unfornately protrayed in the media are the ones that makes other racial groups assume is the mass majority. not true at all. seriously most believe you seen one you've seen them all sort of kick. another thing why i believe blacks are behind is that they often look to the past at little too much, instead of the future. shame to say that if you pick up a book by a black author they mostly revert to the past or it's "ooh, girl your man is cheating" or "Yo, your boy's been shot." but as it is people of african descent are the most despised people in the world, everybody hates us so terribly, lol.

The show Black/White is a stupid experiement, I think personally. Neither one of the families repersented were a good spokespersons for their races. each side were both ignorant in my opinion and i pray that the show will not be renewed.

[Yoda117]

That would be a California problem. Education is not an expressed responsibility of the Federal Government, and thus it became part of a State's set of powers. That said, it has no effect on the United States as a whole. As for the groups that don't want to speak English, that is their perogative, but they should not expect any support from the Government in that endeavour.



But they are expecting support from the Government, demanding it. And no, it is not simply a California problem. Currently 13 states offer free education to illegal immigrants, and when some of them are trying to draw on SS, yeah it's a federal problem.



If someone adamantly refuses to, there is little that can be done. The point, though, is that their refusal to adopt English should not be met with concessions from the government to make their time any easier.

If only Education weren't always on the short end of the budgeting stick. This country would be a much better place to live if only its population were more educated.



Education is the largest part of the federal budget, most states as well. We spend more money per student than ANY other country in the world. I think the problem is not one of money, but of the effectiveness of the educational system.



If it is an issue, it is one that is rarely talked about or mentioned in passing. I've only lived in South Florida for about 15 years, read the occasional article, attend the occasional roundtable discussion, and it simply hasn't come up. The issue of falsified SSNs has, but in regard to theft I can only say that I've never heard nor seen evidence of it. Evidence would be welcome.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

Heh, tons of stuff on google, although groups like ISC2, SANS, CINA, and Infraguard have loads more information.




Illegal Immigrants (from Mexico, roughly 32,000) in Federal Prison represent about .5% of the Illegal Immigrant population (http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp#1,) though I'm not sure how many reside in State Prisons. Arizona, in particular, seems pack a large amount of illegals into its prisons. The question, I guess, is what do you mean by a disproportionate %?



Again, seek info from various security sources or the DOJ, where the percentage in state and federal prisions is above 10%, much higher than the % of illegal immigrants here. I got mine info from:

National Institute of Corrections, Federal Bureau of Prisons, June 2003
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml (though in truth, I find them to be a little too far to the right for me)





I wish, they are mostly undocumented.


yeah, let's find another term for illegal immigrants, it always makes the problem seem less bad, doesn't it?




What you'd rather have is hardly relevant, though as part Cherokee I can agree with your sentiment. Native Americans were used as slaves until they were nearly depleted, though I think this was more an issue in South America. I believe a spanish monk whose name escapes me suggested the use of Africans, as they were already acclimated to European disease. The point of the matter is that to put Native Americans (of today) in the same boat as Blacks (today) in regards to getting a bad deal is a bit silly.


My point was that while both have issues, to negate one over the other is foolish. Both sides can easily claim that their plight was worse, which negates the tragedy that both endured.




No, not really. That would be like saying I have committed theft, but since I haven't been caught I am still committing theft. It's one count of theft, committed, not committing. I may not have broken the law since, and while I could be pulled it for theft, it would be because I committed the crime, not because I kept committing it.


Bad argument, as you have still comitted both federal and in many regions, a state crime. Additionally you serve as a bad example to others.



So there are no shades of grey in this one for you?


not too many in this situation to have. We have special visas that often go unused, expediated means of obtaining visas, amnesty and ex-patriate programs. Even means of becoming citizens if you are already here illegally. I haven't heard word one on these, just screams for amnesty.

And we did that ones already, back in the 80s. It didn't work then either, as it just fueled the illegal immigrant problem.



For the otherwise law-abiding individual, I'm inclined to chalk that up to desperation. Though I doubt I'll ever find myself in the situation, if I am given the choice of committing a non-serious crime or not being able to take care of my family, chances are I'll commit the crime.


Nice try, find another honeydew argument... not buying this one, as you have already comitted a crime. This goes to my point about not being selective with the laws you want to obey. Additionally, there are ways to currently earn a citizenship if you are already here illegally. Several remedies exist, but most choose not to take them.



Because they are ignorant. Even coming here legally, they wouldn't be allowed to vote. There are problems with every extreme, and the extreme end of the pro-illegal camp has problems remembering what benefits are only given to citizens. But, like I said, this is an extreme. It is easy to lump them all together but you have illegals that do not abuse the system and do not expect the things that the Illegal Immigrant Rights groups protest for.

Just because they want it does not mean that they will get it. I don't care if they want the right to vote-- it will never happen. They can protest to their hearts content, and they'll never get the right to vote as an illegal or even legal alien. They have a right to the protections of law when they are in our country, but they do not have the priviliges of being a citizen, and no amount of wanting is going to change that. That's why I never bring it up; because a it is immaterial to what is and what can happen.


ahh... the tiny minority of extremeists argument. Funny, I seem to recall seeing a hell of a lot of that tiny minority protesting a little while back. I also recall a lot of complaints when something as simple as "proof of id" was brought up in several states for the presidential election. Now why was that...?

Yes, they do deserve the protection of our law, but they need to follow it. This is something they haven't done from the start since they chose to come here illegally. But let's ignore that. They do NOT have, nor deserve the use of our social systems.




Their participation in the education system does cause a drain, but if their children are citizens by birth then does that really count? We can say that those kids wouldn't be here as citizens if their parents weren't here illegally, but the kid is here and is a citizen. I've looked at alot of studies, and the amount that illegals contribute and drain varies in each one. I feel certain that for every study you can dig up giving one result, I can dig one up to the contrary. It's the nature of statistics, with enough data, you can prove anything.


13 states currently offer FREE COLLEGE EDUCTIONS to illegal immigrants. No statistic there (save that of a census). How much money could we use to provide for legal citizens. By birthright, yes the children born here are legal. That does NOT mean that their relatives get a free pass.



That said, pointing at an education system in Israel and proclaiming that since their 9-18 year olds can learn two languages, the adult immigrants who come here have no excuse for failing to learn English is absurd. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.


eh? never pointed to another country. Additionally English is a tough language to learn. Doesn't mean that they don't need to integrate.



I can't show you plenty of people who have nothing to do with this nonsense; because they make no waves and cause no controversy, instead focusing on providing for their family.


you mean save for the fact that they've broken the law to come here and are violating it by staying?

[Eva]

To note a bit on what Tamu said....

As I've said before, I live in southern California, very close to LA, and there's a LOT of black people here, and a lot of them seem to all act the same. I have black friends, mind, and I know not all are the same way, and there's a lot of other races the same way, but.....

A lot of black people are..... very, very racist. Anything that happens to them is blamed on white people, who they call 'cracka's'. If I called a black person a nigga, I'd get my ass beat. I see almost no respect from authority, even from the adults, and it tends to get on my nerves. Many of the black people I talk to, guys mostly, claim they want to get jobs as drug dealers or pimps.

But generally, I just get sick of being called racist for ever in my life not agreeing with a black person. I think of people the way they act, and I just tend to notice a lot of black acting like idiots. MLK got you into schools so you could learn, get educated, get good jobs! Power to blacks that break out of their stereotypes and make something of themselves!

Besides, we're all humans

[Chris Nagy]

Let's try this again...

But they are expecting support from the Government, demanding it. And no, it is not simply a California problem. Currently 13 states offer free education to illegal immigrants, and when some of them are trying to draw on SS, yeah it's a federal problem. Education is handled by the state. Hence, if California passes a law regarding education, that is California's concern. If 15 states do it, that is the concern of those 15 states. SS is a whole different matter.


Education is the largest part of the federal budget, most states as well. We spend more money per student than ANY other country in the world. I think the problem is not one of money, but of the effectiveness of the educational system. Being the largest part of the budget does not mean that it is being funded enough. The No Child Left Behind Act sputtered and faltered for lack of necessary funding, that says more to the problem than the fact that education gets the biggest % of the budget pie.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/)

Heh, tons of stuff on google, although groups like ISC2, SANS, CINA, and Infraguard have loads more information. Yeah, there is no shortage of information for either side of the argument, statistics and the whole nine yards. I think I made this point already. Furthermore, if the government realizes this; why exactly don't they act?


yeah, let's find another term for illegal immigrants, it always makes the problem seem less bad, doesn't it?We label everything. Let's call blacks African Americans, even if they aren't Americans or even Africans. Seriously, if you are going to pick me apart because of referring to an illegal alien as a undocumented immigrant (which, in all technicality, they are) then what we are doing here is an exercise in futility.


My point was that while both have issues, to negate one over the other is foolish. Both sides can easily claim that their plight was worse, which negates the tragedy that both endured.Please reread what was written. The reference was not about whose plight "was" worse, but whose plight "is" worse. As in, today. I do not believe the Native Americans have it anywhere nearly as bad as today's black population.


Bad argument, as you have still comitted both federal and in many regions, a state crime. Additionally you serve as a bad example to others. You can call it a bad argument, but you asked how I was not still committing a crime, not what kind of example I serve as. Yes, I committed a crime (this is hypothetical,) no, I am not still committing crimes necessarily.


not too many in this situation to have. We have special visas that often go unused, expediated means of obtaining visas, amnesty and ex-patriate programs. Even means of becoming citizens if you are already here illegally. I haven't heard word one on these, just screams for amnesty.

And we did that ones already, back in the 80s. It didn't work then either, as it just fueled the illegal immigrant problem. Realistically, how much are you going to hear from the people who are here illegally and then go about trying to change their status? No one is talking about Amnesty, except for the protesters, but I think we've already established that what they want and what they can get are completely different. They can protest about anything, it does not mean that we'll even entertain the thought of giving it to them.


Nice try, find another honeydew argument... not buying this one, as you have already comitted a crime. This goes to my point about not being selective with the laws you want to obey. Additionally, there are ways to currently earn a citizenship if you are already here illegally. Several remedies exist, but most choose not to take them.Alright, back in reality, I doubt the citizen exists that does not ignore some law. It's not as clean cut as that, even though you try to make it out that way. Coming here illegally is a choice with consequences, but if that is the best choice you have (all consequences considered) then some effort should be made to look into the circumstances. Additionally, ignorance on the part of illegal aliens in regards to how to change their status keeps most of them from doing so. I've not yet heard a single, rational reason that an illegal alien would not want to become legalized.


ahh... the tiny minority of extremeists argument. Funny, I seem to recall seeing a hell of a lot of that tiny minority protesting a little while back. I also recall a lot of complaints when something as simple as "proof of id" was brought up in several states for the presidential election. Now why was that...? How many of them were protesting for the right to vote, and how many of them were protesting the House bill that called for them to become Felons under the law? As a Floridian, I didn't get to see any of this up close, but I can understand why so many people were protesting against their status becoming a felony.


Yes, they do deserve the protection of our law, but they need to follow it. This is something they haven't done from the start since they chose to come here illegally. But let's ignore that. They do NOT have, nor deserve the use of our social systems.I'm not arguing the point about the need to follow the law nor the fact that they shouldn't abuse social systems. You can't exactly refuse them medical treatment, though.


13 states currently offer FREE COLLEGE EDUCTIONS to illegal immigrants. No statistic there (save that of a census). How much money could we use to provide for legal citizens. By birthright, yes the children born here are legal. That does NOT mean that their relatives get a free pass. Education is the domain of the State. That 13 states have such offers is the concern of those States; the great thing about democracy is that when your elected officials do something that you do not agree with, you are free to vote against them, assuming you can vote.


eh? never pointed to another country. Additionally English is a tough language to learn. Doesn't mean that they don't need to integrate. You realize that this entire line of comments relating to this quote, the quote it quotes, etc, stemmed from someone else's point that I was responding to them about?


you mean save for the fact that they've broken the law to come here and are violating it by staying? This seems to be the sticking point for you; the alpha-omega response to any attempt to approach the idea that an illegal alien can be a law abiding resident. "Just being here is a crime." I sincerely don't see how we can continue this debate since the very basis of your opinions allows for no circumstance outside the word of law.

[Chris Nagy]

OFF TOPIC: Snip
Continued Offtopic:

It is interesting to hear your perspective on it. I generally blame alot of the problems Blacks (more than just Blacks, actually, more generally the poor) face today to a lack of proper education because, while you might not be able to pick your parents, you are at least given a chance to break away from the cycle if you do well enough in school to qualify for scholarships, and go on to higher education.

In your opinion, what steps are necessary to break past the stereotypes and move ahead?

[Tamu Ali]

To note a bit on what Tamu said....

As I've said before, I live in southern California, very close to LA, and there's a LOT of black people here, and a lot of them seem to all act the same. I have black friends, mind, and I know not all are the same way, and there's a lot of other races the same way, but.....

A lot of black people are..... very, very racist. Anything that happens to them is blamed on white people, who they call 'cracka's'. If I called a black person a nigga, I'd get my ass beat. I see almost no respect from authority, even from the adults, and it tends to get on my nerves. Many of the black people I talk to, guys mostly, claim they want to get jobs as drug dealers or pimps.

But generally, I just get sick of being called racist for ever in my life not agreeing with a black person. I think of people the way they act, and I just tend to notice a lot of black acting like idiots. MLK got you into schools so you could learn, get educated, get good jobs! Power to blacks that break out of their stereotypes and make something of themselves!

Besides, we're all humans

MLK didn't get us into schools, dear. we were already going to school before the whole civil rights movement. he was justing trying to get intergrate the southern blacks and trying to get the same opportunities that the whites had. black schools were further away in distance mostly than the white counter-parts. basically trying to make things easier.

No, blacks aren't rascist....just angry. some are ignorant but that's in every race. there is some degree of prejudice in each and every one of us. and if you say you weren't prejudice you'll be lying, coz it's human nature.

but like i said previously you only seen things one way....and sad to say those that you have encountered effected your views.


Continued Offtopic:

It is interesting to hear your perspective on it. I generally blame alot of the problems Blacks (more than just Blacks, actually, more generally the poor) face today to a lack of proper education because, while you might not be able to pick your parents, you are at least given a chance to break away from the cycle if you do well enough in school to qualify for scholarships, and go on to higher education.

In your opinion, what steps are necessary to break past the stereotypes and move ahead?

education is a good factor...but having a good support system outside of school is a EXCELENT FACTOR!!! which is why i take my time volunteering at various afterschool programs and try to invite as much people as I can.
but the necessary steps that are to break past stereotypes and move ahead is to learn from mistakes and stick together. encouragement is the key in my opinion and having one another's backs. often i find blacks tear each other down when another is doing well. very jealous, which isn't good.

[Eva]

MLK didn't get us into schools, dear. we were already going to school before the whole civil rights movement. he was justing trying to get intergrate the southern blacks and trying to get the same opportunities that the whites had. black schools were further away in distance mostly than the white counter-parts. basically trying to make things easier.

No, blacks aren't rascist....just angry. some are ignorant but that's in every race. there is some degree of prejudice in each and every one of us. and if you say you weren't prejudice you'll be lying, coz it's human nature.

Excuse me, I tend to associate him with the whole civil rights movement. Mistake on my part.

I've never heard a white person blame all their probelms, and however anyone treats them on being white. And I would call calling white people Crackers and 'joe' racist, as I'm sure you would think me racist if I started calling black people niggers. Wouldn't you?

[Tamu Ali]

Excuse me, I tend to associate him with the whole civil rights movement. Mistake on my part.

I've never heard a white person blame all their probelms, and however anyone treats them on being white. And I would call calling white people Crackers and 'joe' racist, as I'm sure you would think me racist if I started calling black people niggers. Wouldn't you?

of course you wouldn't hear white people blame all of their problems because of the color of their skin coz there isn't a need. also like i said there's prejudice in all people. and yes, if you point blank called me a nigger i would most defaintly think you are a racist. and you would hope you are quick on your feet.
but like i said before you've had encounters with ignorant people. and whites, latins, asians, and etcetera can be just as ignorant...

i didn't say that Martin Luther King wasn't apart of the civil rights movement. i just said he didn't get blacks into schools. we already had education systems before he came along.

[Eva]

You assume I was being sarcastic about the MLK thing. I wasn't.

And I'm sure all group are prejudiced against, and I know all people have prejudices, but honestly. I dobn't let some black kid I don't know borrow my CD player, and he starts screaming at me for being racist. This kind of thing happens a lot. I get yelled at because 'my people used their people as slaves'

[Tamu Ali]

You assume I was being sarcastic about the MLK thing. I wasn't.

And I'm sure all group are prejudiced against, and I know all people have prejudices, but honestly. I dobn't let some black kid I don't know borrow my CD player, and he starts screaming at me for being racist. This kind of thing happens a lot. I get yelled at because 'my people used their people as slaves'

like i said you've ran into ignorant assholes who don't have a clue what they are talking about. besides they're only trying to bully you from the sound of it. can i ask what is the ratio in your school? because some kids of different races do get picked on because of what they are. as for me i had never truly ran into that problem because i was in a very mixed school system. also, you should know that the temperment of west coast people are very different than mid-westerns (where i'm from.) west coast people are kind of hostile. i.e: your problem with the kids from your school.

[Eva]

Yeah..... I think less than 1/3 of my school is Black, but SoCal is very..... supportive of gang culture. Which I hate. A lot of Hispanics, Whites, Asians, etc also pick up speaking Ebonics, which weirds me out. We play rap music at lunch @_@

And really, I get picked on by everyone ^^; Race is not a factor, I''m a sarcastic bitch to everyone equally, and they all make fun of me equally.

yeah, people for places away from where I live seem a lot calmer ^^;

[Tamu Ali]

And really, I get picked on by everyone ^^; Race is not a factor, I''m a sarcastic bitch to everyone equally, and they all make fun of me equally.

yeah, people for places away from where I live seem a lot calmer ^^;

that's the reason...you're probably very opinionated, lol.

[Ihsahn]

As far as the language thing is concerned... Sometimes learning a language can't be helped. Example: My entire family is from Norway, and my grandma, who lives in Florida with the rest of my family, knows very little English (which is odd because most Scandinavians also speak English). Not because she couldn't afford to learn, or just flat out refused to, but because she's old. She was old when we came to the states, and everyone knows you can't teach an old dog new tricks. It's very difficult for older people to learn another language, this is why most schools teach language at an early age.

Also, the reason many Spanish-speaking immigrants are refusing to learn English is because most of the people they interact with are the same, and many of them don't see that changing. Also, we accomidate Spanish speakers with many bilingual things. Perhaps they assume that the way things are going, there will be no need to learn English because soon enough everything will be bilingual. Then again, I'm not one of them so I don't exactly know myself.

As far as the black thing goes, I'm not sure blaming it all on the inner-city education system is accurate. Think about American pop culture. In essence, we're cutting our own throats. Being a white guy whose obsessed with heavy metal and horror movies, I don't claim to be a pop culture expert. But black pop culture is the norm now. Much of it is very destructive, advocating drug use/sales, the mistreatment of women, gangs, doing anything to make money, racism, etc. You could call me a hypocrite here, considering how most metal culture isn't exactly "politically correct", but most metalheads are very intelligent, and aren't going to kill anybody (despite most metal lyrical concepts). Metal culture is just sort of a big "fuck you!" to normal society, but pop culture is now excepted as the norm, so a young black kid who want's to be a gangster and a drug dealer and a pimp is just accepted as a "passing phase". Nothing is being done about it. Then again I could be totally wrong about this. I dunno!

Blak metallliv for evig! Drikker blodet av kristus!

[fukkatsu]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060515/ap_on_go_pr_wh/immigration;_ylt=Apg_VgkBJYlibTuu6CDYKMes0NUE;_ylu =X3oDMTA3OXIzMDMzBHNlYwM3MDM-

So bush decided MAYBE I should be trying to do something about this... and lets see how effective this is in keeping those pesty buggers out!

[Icypopcorn]

Actually on topic:
A conversation my friend had with some Mexican chic at her school:
SIS: Why're you protesting, anyways?
GIRL: I don't know, but LATINA PRIDE!! LATINA PRIDE!! *waves Mexican flag*

Seriously... xD; They should be waving the AMERICAN flag >__>;;

As for the whole black people thing-- I think it's a regional thing. Especially in the South. :/

[Tamu Ali]

As far as the language thing is concerned... Sometimes learning a language can't be helped. Example: My entire family is from Norway, and my grandma, who lives in Florida with the rest of my family, knows very little English (which is odd because most Scandinavians also speak English). Not because she couldn't afford to learn, or just flat out refused to, but because she's old. She was old when we came to the states, and everyone knows you can't teach an old dog new tricks. It's very difficult for older people to learn another language, this is why most schools teach language at an early age.

Also, the reason many Spanish-speaking immigrants are refusing to learn English is because most of the people they interact with are the same, and many of them don't see that changing. Also, we accomidate Spanish speakers with many bilingual things. Perhaps they assume that the way things are going, there will be no need to learn English because soon enough everything will be bilingual. Then again, I'm not one of them so I don't exactly know myself.

As far as the black thing goes, I'm not sure blaming it all on the inner-city education system is accurate. Think about American pop culture. In essence, we're cutting our own throats. Being a white guy whose obsessed with heavy metal and horror movies, I don't claim to be a pop culture expert. But black pop culture is the norm now. Much of it is very destructive, advocating drug use/sales, the mistreatment of women, gangs, doing anything to make money, racism, etc. You could call me a hypocrite here, considering how most metal culture isn't exactly "politically correct", but most metalheads are very intelligent, and aren't going to kill anybody (despite most metal lyrical concepts). Metal culture is just sort of a big "fuck you!" to normal society, but pop culture is now excepted as the norm, so a young black kid who want's to be a gangster and a drug dealer and a pimp is just accepted as a "passing phase". Nothing is being done about it. Then again I could be totally wrong about this. I dunno!

Blak metallliv for evig! Drikker blodet av kristus!



nope, it's at home. also your music is just as destructive, and the whole drug-use thing went out with gangster rap in the 90's.

but sometimes i think these illegal immigrants act as if they have rights, but in truth they don't deserve them. thanks to them our ecconomy has been sucked dry, i feel that they need to be punished for coming in illegally and that's that.


Actually on topic:
A conversation my friend had with some Mexican chic at her school:
SIS: Why're you protesting, anyways?
GIRL: I don't know, but LATINA PRIDE!! LATINA PRIDE!! *waves Mexican flag*

Seriously... xD; They should be waving the AMERICAN flag >__>;;

As for the whole black people thing-- I think it's a regional thing. Especially in the South. :/

regional thing? could be it...i forgot about that...ocz, there is more crime in the south that's for sure.

so, she didn't have a clue what she was doing. very smart.

[Kagome]

Wow this topic is still up? LOL
^.^

[White Rose Assassin]

Wow this topic is still up? LOL
^.^

Because it still is. Also, please refrain from using "azn" to refer to Asians. Most Asians associate that term with the wannabe black "Asians."

My two cents? I'm with Masahiko. The immigration system is beauracratic and it needs reform. Masahiko's uncle was lucky, they give him twelve years. They gave my aunt almost twenty years. No one is a spring chicken forever. You may say, "Wait like the rest of 'em!" but it's not that easy. I think there needs to be serious reform within the immigration system to make is less beauracratic for immigrants to come over here.

Even one of our California senators (or was he a representative) says the current border patroling issue is overshadowing other important issues to be considered like renewing levys and such.

I don't think it's feasible to deport the millions of illegals here. I'm against illegal immigration, but there needs to be a way to solve this issue. Why are they coming here illegally as opposed to the "right way?" There are hard working illegal immigrants just getting by to survive and learning English. Then there are the ones that suck up on welfare. That's bad.

As far as the "You wanna live here? Speak the damn language" bit, I'll give credit to those who actually learn English.