Criticisms of tweened Flash animation

[Brad Tajiri]

I've begun to see a recent surge of criticism pertaining towards Macromedia Flash animation.

Most noteworthy to me is the new thing most critics are saying:

Flash animation that features tweened symbols are lazy work on the artist's part. Then they go on to say that FBF (Frame-By-Frame) animation is infintely better and shows off the "true" artists of the Flash community.

For those who are unfamiliar with Flash jargon, here's the basic of it:



Tweening - The usage of pre-drawn symbols (A head or arm for example) and having the program animate the in-between motions. Example: You move an arm from going down to up. You only have to worry about the three points, where it starts, the middle point, the end. The program handles the rest.

FBF aka Frame By Frame - This is the most well-known and widely used technique in animation. You draw each individual frame out basically. No symbols and no tweening.


Now, I agree that FBF animation can be amazing and better than Tween animation...for five-minute shorts. What about those who are working hard on a long-running SERIES?

Not all of us have thirty years to make a consistent FBF series.

I saw a review for Xombie: Chapter 7 that reflected this. The reviewer said the animation was dull, out-dated and most of all did not feature FBF animation and thus it was bad. Lo and behold when I check the reviewer's profile he didn't have a single Flash submitted. Zero, zip, nada.


You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

It's easy to tell off someone who uses tweens and that FBF is the only worthwhile medium in Flash. Us "tweeners" do not use the Tween option to be "lazy". It saves time. A five-minute FBF toon takes months upon months to do. That's good and all for a stand alone short, but what if you want to make a series that spans over twenty or fourty episodes? Time stacks up, y'know. Voice actors, composers, and namely the artist have lives.

Hell, the artist in question might have multiple series planned out and wants to at least make a few of them, not spend a quarter of his/her life working on just one.

Some people are probably wondering: Well, it takes time to produce something good.

Yes, it does.

I've spent at least four months working on one flash. Three months were for the animation alone (Factoring in lip-syncing and waiting for VAs to turn in lines.) and a month to the present to help produce the musical score for the episode. Three to four episodes per year is something I can work with. It also increases the chance of keeping the same voice actors aboard the project as well the composer. (Seriously, how many Flash series have you seen that featured an original score, a well-composed one at that?)

Basically what I'm trying to say: It just pisses me off to no end when someone basically writes off a piece that has so much work put into it because it doesn't use a prefered and more time-consuming animation technique.


(But then again, it was a Newgrounds review and those can't really be taken that seriously. :razz: Also if none this made sense, forgive me as this was my first real "rant". )

[Tony]

For the small bit of Flash I've done, tweens were the reason I didn't pull my hair out.

[Matt Alan]

Who cares what a bunch of 10-year-olds think? Tis why I avoid Newgrounds. Nothing redeeming about the site.

[Brad Tajiri]

Who cares what a bunch of 10-year-olds think? Tis why I avoid Newgrounds. Nothing redeeming about the site.

But this one was a 27-year old speaking like a 10-year old. Either he didn't pass high school or someone is lying about his age. :razz:

[Fernie]

First off, I'll just agree with you on the Newgrounds comment thing. Taking a quick look at the mentioned Flash and the many comments it appears to have been well received, I'd say just ignore the random twelve year old.

Anyway, as for the main point of your rant, I’ll just say as long as it looks good and doesn‘t distract from the rest of the content, then who cares what technique was used to get there. This sounds like the Film vs. Video debate I hear every once in a while, of course film is going to look better, but it’ll cost ten to twenty times more. And is the extra cost going to benefit the story? A bad movie is a bad movie no matter what it was shot on. And a bad flash is a bad flash, no matter how it was animated.
That being said, there certainly are advantages to going the frame by frame route, when done well I feel it can much more readily be able to express emotions that would look awkward when doing it all by tweening, and the characters feel like they have a weight to them and their movements. But that sort of stuff would be wasted on, say, Homestar Runner. That, for example has a style that suits tweening and is a large success regardless of it’s animation technique. Meanwhile, I remember seeing some crap on the front page of NewGrounds that while had animation reminiscent of Don Bluth’s work, completely bored me to tears. So yeah, worry about the important things before about how good it looks.

[Zankoku no Yami]

I personally could careless about how its done. As long as its either funny or a great story, thats all that matters! And if its easier to do it one way, I dont mind at all! I think people are just jealous that its really good so they make up reasons to hate it. But thats just my thoughts.

[Brad Tajiri]

@Fernie: Yes it was very well recieved, I just for some reason zone out on the low-scoring reviews, especially ones for my own work. That's how I am. :P

And yes, I full-heartedly agree about your comment on how there has to be good supporting content in the work. Style over substance is a big problem over at Newgrounds, there's rarely anything worth watching. It's an excellent place for exposure but... :?

[GravitasLost]

I've seen the tween vs FBF complaints myself, the way I see it, everything is about
finding the tradeoff between quality and time available to tell a great story. To me a
great sign of skill is the person who finds the right balance between the two..

[fukkatsu]

As an artist in illustrating and storytelling the most important thing is for quality and getting the message across if there is such a message. As long as what you do is done well and everything is pretty and put in place so that the audience can understand and enjoy then there should be no problem in how everything was expedited no?

Whether you tween and go FBF if the result is something amazing that everyone can enjoy and understand then I think that is all that matters.

[ClymAngus]

*Sigh* Now you think that everyone would be happy that people are using a tool to create instead of working out new and interesting ways to slag each other off in the popular press.

The best constructed animated short, etched cell by cell in gold leaf by blind Tibetan monks on the buttocks of virgin maidens ain't worth shit, if the story's no good.

I don't think you'll hear a lot of decent from the actual artists, most of them understand that this is like saying "pencil is better than paint" Bollocks, the medium transmits the message. Technical skill does not define the quality of your message.

[Azure]

I've seen stuff tweened that looks perfectly OK but then again I've seen some terrible motion, I think like many things it depends how you use it. One artist I know uses tweening for distance scene but for important stuff frame by frame, another pair I know are doing a full length anime and they use flash mainly as a drawing/assembling tool shuning tweening altogether.
Also BOOO HIISSS to comercial companies who tween you have money, and I know how you are you lazy people BBC and ITV is populated with your spawn booo!

[ClymAngus]

Also BOOO HIISSS to comercial companies who tween you have money, and I know how you are you lazy people BBC and ITV is populated with your spawn booo!

I'm deepy hurt! As a representative of a post production company with such productions as Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, V for Vendetta, Harry Potter, Doom and Xmen3 under it's belt. I can tell you as gospel truth if it gets the project out we will use any effect that gets the job done. Comp, 2D, 3D shake to Quantel, tween, over paint, roto, retouching, anything.

There is no shame there is only profitability. Screw the method show me the green.

When the children at new grounds grow up and have to get proper jobs they enter my world. :)

[Chris Nagy]

Since when have critics ever had to actually produce anything relative to what they are critiquing? Ideally, the critic should be somewhat schooled in the field but even that isn't a requirement.

Critic: "Well, your performance was a bit lackluster."
Actor: "Have you ever acted in film?"
Critic: "Well, no..."
Actor: "Then your opinion is worthless."

When you share your work with the world, you open it up to praise and criticism. Criticism won't always be reserved for projects that were obviously flawed in any particular way-- occasionally you will find someone who will grill you on technique, even if your quality is par for the course or better. That's the risk you take putting it out there, especially at Newgrounds (which seems almost entirely populated by prepubescent boys.)

[Azure]

Well it depends on the type of critque surely? you can critique as a viewer/ consumer and also as an industry professional. E.g gaming wise Edge magazine is focused on the industry and seems to me to have much more time for RPGs then say most consumer PCs magazines which tend to like things that blow up.

[ClymAngus]

Since when have critics ever had to actually produce anything relative to what they are critiquing?

It has been known to occur from time to time.


Ideally, the critic should be somewhat schooled in the field but even that isn't a requirement.

Well it's not adequately policed, more often it's a case of "have gob will travel".



When you share your work with the world, you open it up to praise and criticism. Criticism won't always be reserved for projects that were obviously flawed in any particular way-- occasionally you will find someone who will grill you on technique, even if your quality is par for the course or better. That's the risk you take putting it out there, especially at Newgrounds (which seems almost entirely populated by prepubescent boys.)

Na, I see it differently this isn't about being critical it's about being cliquey. The new grounds point system is set up to reward any comment. More over it's almost a betting system if you take into account the blam points. In an enviroment where polorised views are rewarded, that's where you'll see extreme views gaining "power" over moderate ones. Your being way too blunt with your critical apprasal of the situation, yes if you broadcast you have to accept reaction but more importantly the reaction you get is determined by the enviroment your product finds itself in.

If the trend is to do down tweening, then jumping on this band wagon is a quick and easy way to gain points. It isn't about personal like or dislike for a story or the way it's animated. It's all turned into economics, profit and loss. This is the flaw in the new grounds system, not the competence of the critics but the over simplified reward system and the exploitation of it.

[Chris Nagy]

Well, my previous reply was eaten, so I'll retype what I can remember of it.

Firstly, to Azure:

It doesn't matter so much the type of critique. The magazines that you mention have their own particular tastes, and so if one prefers rpgs more than action adventure titles, they would be best served by reading the magazine that caters to their own tastes.

Newgrounds, as far as I can tell, is geared towards amateur animators. So while it might not be exactly fair to criticize the animation for not being frame-by-frame (a process that takes longer than most amateur and hobbyist animators have to devote,) it is still a valid criticism. Tweening isn't a better process, it is simply more convenient, and so a critic who states that the piece should have been animated frame by frame is providing a reason for why he believes that the piece is not as good as it could have been. It is the equivalent of saying "While I like the essay, you really should have typed it instead of writing it by hand."

To Clymangus:

I think you are oversimplifying things. When I give my "blunt... critical appraisal," I can be wrong about it and there is no harm and no foul. After all, when the critic is being serious and not bandwagoning then my appraisal of the situation is spot on. When the critic is bandwagoning and exploiting the blam system, then the author should be able to recognize it and dismiss it.

When you put all of the reasoning on the system, and trends, and bandwagoning, you tell an author to feel free to ignore any and all comments that he does not like. While the author is already free to do this, you are legitimizing it by stating that there are concrete reasons as to why anyone who states anything resembling a trend is merely looking for Blam points, or whatever Newgrounds rewards with. This means that actual, serious critical analysis of a piece can be tossed aside simply because anyone who happens to dislike something that alot of other people also dislike is automatically bandwagoning. Even if serious critiques are few and far between, that's no reason to write them all off as exploitation and trend following.

[TomaMoto]

Hey, er--uh, Brad? Where are the actual comments that started all this? Was this meant to be a venting post? Seems to have turned into something completely different; something about critiquing critics on critical elements of the critique. I don't know how to use a semicolon, but I just did anyway. What does that prove? Nothing in itself, but hear me out. People just do and say dumb stuff. They are pretentious and it REALLY shows on the internet. Don't let it get you down. I promise that the vast majority of viewers on newgrounds and throughout the internet do NOT care HOW you did what you did. They just care about the end product.

[Azure]

I think it's Brads point is a general thing towards the way Newgrounds works and how much value there is in a review like that (i.e it's obvious why it's tweened -time), what my point was in a round about way is that you probably shouldn't expect any less from NG. It's Newgrounds people say "stuff" rather than proper critiques to get points. If you want to have a 'proper' review where people understand more about the time it takes to work in different ways and advice on how to improve go to a respected and well moderated animation/flash site. I'd never expect any more than " Ur good" " u suck" as a revie won my voice on that site XD

[Brad Tajiri]

Wow, I totally forgot about this thread.

Anyways, I've seen the comments at other places besides NewGrounds. Some well known artists in the flash community carry this philosophy too, but I won't be giving out names. :razz: If I didn't, I wouldn't have cared as much seeing as NG isn't exactly the greatest place for criticism.

[James N.]

It's no more "lazy" than any other form of computer animation.
It's funny how they talk about tweening in Flash as "lazy" but totally disregard 3D animation like Toy Story and The Incredibles which is tweened.
James

[ClymAngus]

It's no more "lazy" than any other form of computer animation.
It's funny how they talk about tweening in Flash as "lazy" but totally disregard 3D animation like Toy Story and The Incredibles which is tweened.
James

Woah! Bit of a necropost there? Ooops I just critisized your post, Oh the irony, oh the hypocracy...... Why god, WWHHYY!

Seriously though, tweening is one of the ways you can effect change upon a 3D object yes. There is also scaling, rotation and translation. Some people would argue there is only scaling, rotation and translation as those are the only types of movement available within 3D space, but I digress. Technically, something is changing from image to image, so technically it is animation. Execution of the art, (whatever that art is) is all, not nessessarily the method by which you get there. Blind man in a clapped out old fiat, or a blind man in a porche. Doesn't make a difference, they're both equally doomed to drive badly.

[James N.]

Woah! Bit of a necropost there? Ooops I just critisized your post, Oh the irony, oh the hypocracy...... Why god, WWHHYY!

Huh? :? I don't get what you're trying to say here...
------

Anyway, I have nothing against tweening in either Flash or any other computer animation program be it 2D or 3D if it's done right.

Right now, tweening is saving my life because I'm in the process of animating 3 different projects right now and it would REALLY frustrate me if I couldn't tween.

James

[frogs]

Well, although "tweening" in a purely technical sense is a reletively new animation technique, animators have been working around the tediousness of FBFing since the beginning. What cartoon ever made was drawn by hand, frame by frame, by one person? Isn't it almost always the case that the head animator draws key frames and has lackey's do the in-betweening? Isn't this just manual labor tweening? Isn't this just as lazy as having a computer to do it? And belive me, you computer (hopefully) doesn't need minimum wage, benefits and frequent 15 minute breaks.

Coincidently, this is why animation houses eventually outsourced to asian child labor.

[Moose]

Considering most flash animators are like voice actors as they a) make very little money, if any off these b) do that as a hobby, and have other stuff to do, tweening is very reasonable. Tweening is just a step to make things alot easier, even though it may not as good (but close to) FBF. Of course, using tweening the whole time is lazy, but for certain things, tweening is good. I mostly use tweening if something is going straight in one direction only, like a bullet or something. It's just another helpful step, and should not be classified as lazy.

[ClymAngus]

Huh? :? I don't get what you're trying to say here...
------


Just being slightly ironic, given the subject matter of the post was about critisism. Maybe even trying to interject a little humor, dodn't mean any harm by it. You know, I knew it was all going wrong when this message popped up when I was writing;

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/InvaderSkoodge/notfunny.jpg

Given that we are essentially agreeing, I wasn't really looking to make any more enemies, (got a nice set of those now, don't need any more).

Getting back to the topic, I do love the way people get all flighty about the purity of their art. Like some how the method they use to create is purer than other peoples, rather than just different. Weird.

[James N.]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up :)
James